Mage/Thief Discussion

secretfire

So, one of the most common characters in BG1/2 is the mage/thief. You have Imoen, Jan Jansen, Nalia, etc. But I don't see much discussion on their effectiveness or use, or the effectiveness of a protagonist Mage/Thief. My initial assumption would be that they would be one of the weaker Multiclasses, since mostly thieves are utility helpers, and you can get the traps/etc done on an npc. On the other hand.... backstab can be really, really nice, as I've seen on my Stalker/Cleric multiclass I'm currently going through BG:EE as.

So, some opinions and discussions, specifically on thief/mages. I'm mostly thinking of multiclass, but dual-class is nice too, I suppose, since Imoen and Nalia are both of this variety. The main benefit I can see of the dual-class is that it adds utility, without costing the mage half anything. The multiclass variety, on the otherhand, gets a full backstab progression, but at the cost of anything resembling a quick caster progression. It is fun to backstab people - but would that be worth the higher level spells?

Thoughts? How powerful could this be? How fun is this? Has anyone tried a shadowkeeper'd Assassin/Mage? multi? (Or bounty hunter/mage, or thief/wild mage)?

I am currently considering abandoning my Cleric/Ranger run for a multiclass assassin/mage run, as per shadowkeeper, but I'm not really sure if it'd be worth it or not.

szb

I tried the gnome illusionist/thief multiclass and it is lots of fun and also powerfull.
Because thieves level up fast, you won't be much behind normal mages.

Backstabbing and invisibility spells work great together, detect illusions frees up spell slots for more usefull spells and traps give another way to deal damage. The thief thac0 also helps for some spells, for example melfs meteors and generally makes archery an option for your mage.

I can see both assassin/mage and bounty hunter/mage working. With invisiblity you can have a lot more backstabs in one fight with the assassin, and I love the bounty hunter traps (lot more versatility). I would probably go with the bounty hunter if you choose to shadokeeper this, because the assassin 15%/level skills would hurt a lot for a multiclass and their special abaility (x7backstab) will come so very late.

Frosty

I aggre about the Bounty Hunter/mage being very good. I think a well placed trap is much better then a backstab. and you can stack the mage spell skull trap with the bounty hunter trap for some amazing carnage. if you do go the back stab rout in BG2 you can cast Tenser's Transformation. to gain the melee ablitys of a fighter to bolster your backstab latter in BG2 you can stack bounty hunter trap, skull trap, and delayed blast fire ball.

sandmanCCL

I don't see much of a point to multi-classing for the entire saga. If you're just going through BG1, then okay, but for guys planning on conquering the whole thing, going swashbuckler, bounty hunter or even just regular thief and then dual-classing is awesome.

1) Means you don't have to rely on the sub-par thieving of NPC thiefs in BG2 and TOB.

2) Over a regular mage, you gain the potential for +24 hp (d6 for 10 levels vs. d4 for 9 levels). I think you'll also have slightly better thac0 and saving throws but that's somewhat inconsequential.

All at the exceptionally low XP cost of 160k. Throw in Swashbuckler and you even get an AC bonus, because why not.

April

Mage/thieves (and at a much higher experience requirement, fighter/mage/thief) can be used to great effect in BG2 aswell by using the spell mislead. When the spell is in effect all melee attacks will count as being invisible, meaning that a mage/thief with multiple attacks/round will get multiple backstabs out each round.

The easiest way to get multiple attacks each round is by dual wielding weapons that give extra attacks and by buffing up with haste or improved haste.

Pantalion

Mage/Thieves are awesome. They start great, they finish great.

Knock and Invisibility ensure you're better at thievery with fewer skillpoints spent, meaning you can pour your points into actually being a competent trapfinder/disarmer.
When you do, inevitably, get the skillpoints to hide anyway, you'll be able to do it instantly you're out of sight and it won't be dispellable.
Invisibility plus Backstab is awesome.
You're not only capable of using a bow, you're pretty good with one thanks to not having Mage THAC0 progression.
Snares are not only powerful AOEs you don't need spell slots for, but they're non-magical and, with HLAs, obscenely powerful, saving level 9 spell slots on other spells, since you're busting out 20D6 damage and timestops multiple times a day. Since you're a multiclass, you get six more HLAs than even a pure Mage, picking from one of the best pools.
Dispel Illusions. It's pretty much better than True Sight.

ZanathKariashi

Yeah, Pantalion, has it covered. Unless you're dualing at an obscenely high level, you're better off with a multi-class or just going straight thief kit. The plain thief is the only one that really benefits from dualing, and even then its only because they get basically all of their benefit by 13.

Assassin: Don't even get their main perk till 21
Bounty Hunters: Same, those maze traps are beastly.
Swashbucklers: Can out-fight a fighter at very high levels using dual-speed weapons, and can cast spells from scrolls, so you really don't need the mage component. This applies to any thief really.

Oxford_Guy

szb said:

I tried the gnome illusionist/thief multiclass and it is lots of fun and also powerfull.
Because thieves level up fast, you won't be much behind normal mages.

Your logic is flawed here, for multi classes the XP are divided evenly between the two classes, the mage part of a mage/thief will not level any quicker than that of a fighter/mage, for example, though the thief part of a mage/thief will gain levels quicker than the fighter part of a fighter/mage

szb

Oxford_Guy said:

szb said:

I tried the gnome illusionist/thief multiclass and it is lots of fun and also powerfull.
Because thieves level up fast, you won't be much behind normal mages.

Your logic is flawed here, for multi classes the XP are divided evenly between the two classes, the mage part of a mage/thief will not level any quicker than that of a fighter/mage, for example, though the thief part of a mage/thief will gain levels quicker than the fighter part of a fighter/mage

Right...2nd edition rules get me confused sometimes.

ZanathKariashi

On the other hand, a T/M WILL get more HLA faster then a plain mage will. So in a sense...they do level a bit faster, since they not only get more HLA sooner, they actually get more total then a single or dual class would.

Madhax

@ZanathKariashi As I understand it, a character gains HLAs at three million total experience, regardless of what class they are, so a T/M multiclass would gain HLAs at roughly the same point as a single-classed mage.

ZanathKariashi

Which is true, BUT they also get a HLA every time one of their classes level up, which due to their lower effective levels, both classes level up much faster then a single class would for the same xp, so they gain HLAs faster overall, and end with several extra over what a dual or single class can.

The single class would have a higher level over all, but the fact that the multiclass is getting MORE levels total, makes them superior. A mage that hits the level after they break 3 mil, gets 1 hla, a T/M that hits their 3 mil mark gets 2 HLA long before the mages gets it's 2nd HLA. This trend continues all the way to the cap.

Before a single class mage even has all their HLA, a T or F/M can have all their mage HLA and start getting several of their other class's HLA.

manutd_fan

For multis (no shadowkeeper), this would be a decision between the Gnome & the Elf

Gnome

- 19 INT (extra spells)
- Illusionist specialisation (extra spells at the cost of Necromancy)
- saving throw bonuses

Elf

- 19 DEX (better ranged THAC0 & better thief bonuses)
- -1 THAC0 with swords & bows
- keeps the option for Necromancy magic
- F/M/T option

as for the human duals, either vanilla thief->mage (if you want to keep backstabs) or swashbuckler->mage (if you don't care for backstabs)

moody_mage

manutd_fan said:

For multis (no shadowkeeper), this would be a decision between the Gnome & the Elf

Gnome

- 19 INT (extra spells)
- Illusionist specialisation (extra spells at the cost of Necromancy)
- saving throw bonuses

Quick correction, the extra spells are coming from being an Illusionist, not from extra INT. Only Priests get bonus spells based on their prime requisite stat.

FinneousPJ

@decado I believe int does affect the number of spells you can have scribed.

moody_mage

@FinneousPJ Scribed yes, cast no.

T2av

Post a assassin mage multi shadowkeepered that was just made.

Wowo

FinneousPJ said:

@decado I believe int does affect the number of spells you can have scribed.

Numerous ways to get to 19 int on an elf which gives unlimited spells scribed so that you can have the useful and useless spells in your spell book, yay.

Illusionist specialty on the other hand is a huge bonus giving an extra spell at every spell level making gnome the definite best choice. I mean, what could be better than casting your best spell twice?

Thief/mage multi is definitely one of the best class combinations in the game.