Two weapon style question

Glorfindel

Two weapon style, Kivan for instance, are you limited in what two weapons you can have? For instance, can you hold two longswords or does one weapon have to be shorter than the other?

Any good recommendations for Kivan's dual weapons?

baaddare

no limitations they just have to be one handed weapons

szb

I'd use two handed weapons because if you use 2 weapons, you'll have to keep going into the inventory every time to switch to bows.

atcDave

szb said:

I'd use two handed weapons because if you use 2 weapons, you'll have to keep going into the inventory every time to switch to bows.

I would normally use different characters as archers and tanks. It is a nuisance to switch between dual wielding and missile weapon; so don't do it. Ditto for shields; they're awkward to switch out with bows or crossbows. I always have my archers use two handed weapons (2-handed sword or halberd especially), it makes switching when needed much easier.

Reference Kivan, he's an excellent choice for either. With a high dexterity he's good with bows. But as a Ranger he gets two weapon style as a freebie; and with his high dexterity he can work easily without a shield. His low constitution is his only drawback; but if you give him the tome from the golem cave it will give him a +1 hit die bonus.
You can dual wield two of the same weapon; which is the most efficient thing to do. Have Kivan specialize in long sword and he will get the +1 to hit/+2 to damage with BOTH swords.

In PNP, off hand weapons have to be small sized IF you don't have the 2 weapon style proficiency. But in BG, the dual wielding penalties are so horrible for trying to dual wield without that proficiency there's no point in even trying.

rdarken

I think there's a bonus for having a tiny weapon in your offhand, though... At least in later editions there is.

albinocobra

rdarken said:

I think there's a bonus for having a tiny weapon in your offhand, though... At least in later editions there is.

This doesn't apply to BG (neither original nor BG2).

It's practically the same if you dual wield 2 daggers, long sword and dagger or 2 bastard swords.

As a side note, it's super annoying that multiclass fighter-thief can only put 2 points in dual wielding which results in -4 to hit chance for an off-hand.

Oxford_Guy

albinocobra said:

rdarken said:

I think there's a bonus for having a tiny weapon in your offhand, though... At least in later editions there is.

This doesn't apply to BG (neither original nor BG2).

It's practically the same if you dual wield 2 daggers, long sword and dagger or 2 bastard swords.

As a side note, it's super annoying that multiclass fighter-thief can only put 2 points in dual wielding which results in -4 to hit chance for an off-hand.

Are you sure? There's no such restriction for a multiclass fighter/mage, for example - I know because I'm playing one at the moment, with 2 pips in longswords and 3 pips in dual wield, you just can't put in more than 2 pips at character creation, I put the third pip into dual wield at fighter level 3 and would be *very* surprised if a figher/thief couldn't do the same

atcDave

rdarken said:

I think there's a bonus for having a tiny weapon in your offhand, though... At least in later editions there is.

There never was in 2E. Just the small weapon requirement if you didn't have two weapon style. You're pretty much always better off using two of the same, until later in BG2 when you might be specialized in more than one weapon.

Albinocobra are you sure? I have a multi-class fighter/cleric who dual wields hammers and has three pips in the style.

albinocobra

Not sure anymore, no xD

It was odd to me too since I remember playing this same char in BG2 a few months back and he had 3 points in dual wield. I guess its 2 points at char creation, 3rd added later on. Good thing I brought this up then

Thanks for clearing that little thingy up

ZanathKariashi

In PnP, A lighter weapon in the off-hand is required, unless you're dual-wielding daggers. There's only 2 points of two weapon style in PnP, and the ** gives the ability to use 2 same-size weapons in addition to reducing the dw penalty (but can never result in a bonus, so rangers and high dex warrior or rogues have little to no benefit aside from unlocking the same-size weapon thing).

BG ignores that and just lets you use whatever, as long as it's 1 handed.

atcDave

ZanathKariashi said:

In PnP, A lighter weapon in the off-hand is required, unless you're dual-wielding daggers. There's only 2 points of two weapon style in PnP, and the ** gives the ability to use 2 same-size weapons in addition to reducing the dw penalty (but can never result in a bonus, so rangers and high dex warrior or rogues have little to no benefit aside from unlocking the same-size weapon thing).

BG ignores that and just lets you use whatever, as long as it's 1 handed.

I explained it completely differently than you Zanath, but in a way we are both correct. In PNP warriors are ASSUMED to have a single proficiency in two weapon style, and must use a lighter weapon as a secondary. But once the fighter takes a single slot in the proficiency he is said to be specialized in it and the size restrictions are lifted. But all of this is from the Fighter's Handbook, which is a supplement and NOT part of the core rules. So practically speaking, everything about styles is "optional", and fair game for tweaking.

I wish the dexterity modifiers had been used, but it does still matter because you are foregoing a shield when dual wielding.

ZanathKariashi

Except that they're also screwing rogues. It clearly stats that rogues can be JUST as good as warriors at dual-wielding IN the warrior book. It's the only weapon style they can specialize in, but BG weakened ** and added a 3rd rank, and for some reason decided to restrict rogues to merely being proficient which they also made everyone pay for.

It's already corrected in my game, but I'm trying to push for proper Two style over in the feature requests. I'd also love for the dex adjustment to be applied, but I don't even know where to begin to try and implement that.

atcDave

Funny thing Zanath, you've forced me to go over the books and rules for the first time in years. I've used my own house rules for 20+ years I wasn't even sure anymore how some of that was worded.

But I generally prefer the PNP implementation of styles (especially getting the dexterity bonuses with two weapon style).
Although the one improvement BG makes over PNP is allowing weapon specialization for other warriors, not just fighters (in PNP Rangers and Paladins COULD NOT specialize at all, they were only allowed one pip per weapon). My own house rules, going back to Unearthed Arcana days (mid 1980s), are a lot like BG rules, I always let Paladins and Rangers specialize, while only Fighters could gain double specialization (an alternate to mastery in the core rules).

Nic_Mercy

There is ONE annoying limitation but I can understand why it exists. The engine can't seem to cope with you using any 1 handed weapon that can also be used as a ranged weapon and anything else. (like an axe or dagger that can be used for melee or used as a throwing weapon that returns).

I once had a character in bg2 that dual wielded axes but I couldnt equip Azuredge in a second weapon slot for quick swapping because of it's "thrown" property.

kilroy_was_here

I was hoping that could be something that would be fixable once the engine was updated. Did anyone post it in the Feature Request section?

ZanathKariashi

They'd probably have to overhaul the whole interface. The reason you can't have a ranged weapon equipped is cause the character will we able to attack at range with his off-hand melee weapon (happens anyway if you dual-wield while using Melf's meteors or energy blades.

They'd have to do something like IWD2's interface and have each node a MH/OH set.

Meroveus

I rolled a Ranger that I planned on using proficiencies with Dual-Wielding/Bows and realized that I had to open the Inventory screen to switch weapons. I guess I shall shelve him until someone manages a workaround.

Time4Tiddy

ZanathKariashi said:

Except that they're also screwing rogues. It clearly stats that rogues can be JUST as good as warriors at dual-wielding IN the warrior book. It's the only weapon style they can specialize in, but BG weakened ** and added a 3rd rank, and for some reason decided to restrict rogues to merely being proficient which they also made everyone pay for.

It's already corrected in my game, but I'm trying to push for proper Two style over in the feature requests. I'd also love for the dex adjustment to be applied, but I don't even know where to begin to try and implement that.

Swashbucklers can put three in two weapon style as part of their kit. That's part of their trade-off for having no backstab.