Weighted Point Buy

Kalindor

It would be nice if there was a character creation option to switch from random rolls to a weighted point buy like in NwN. My friends and I usually grow weary of re-rolling ad nauseum. A weighted point buy would be a fast and "fair" alternative that would result in more believable attribute scores all around.

Tanthalas

So basically have a 3E character creation instead of 2E?

The big issue with this is: how would overhaul decide how many points characters are allowed?

AndreaColombo

The big issue with this is: how would overhaul decide how many points characters are allowed?

In the same way as they did for IWD2, I guess :-)

I'm all for rolling my stats à la Baldur's Gate, but if point buy is implemented as an option I'm fine with that.

Tanthalas

@AndreaColombo

True, but isn't that a tried and true stat total for 3E? That same amount of points would be really little for BGEE I think.

AndreaColombo

@Tanthalas

Yes, 28 points would be too little for a 2E game, especially considering that the OP is asking for a weighted point buy (IWD2 employs a "linear" point buy). IIRC, the 3E Dungeon Master's Guide also proposes a 32 point alternative, and stresses the DM's discretion in determining the amount of points. For a 2E game, a linear point buy with 32 points may work, but no less (3E was more lenient with stat-based bonuses, as well as with many other things).

Kalindor

Linear point buy would also be acceptable provided it factors in required minimums for race/class etc. That would actually mean that a class which "requires 16 CHA" could finally be balanced as a penalty as opposed to a benefit (for ease of rolling stats).

Grammarsalad

So, stat limitations that were actually a disadvantage(!) Cool.

But @AndreaColombo 's point is a good one. 2e stats (within a certain range) are, in many cases, almost pointless with very little difference between them at the mid range and substantial difference at the extremes.

Toggboy

Taking a 3E or 3.5E way of generating stats in a 2E realm is sort of a bad idea. Once you do that, you have to accommodate all the creature and enemies in the game and adjust accordingly to rule change. To much of a hassle, especially when the system works well on its own. Don't fix what isn't broken. Now, if they decided to take the game into 3.5E, that would be awesome for me, (Big DnD player and I love 3.5).

Grammarsalad

@toggboy I think there was an option to do point buy (maybe even weighted) in 2 e. I have a program somewhere that gives all the 2e rules as well as the optional ones. I'll let you know if I find it

Toggboy

Very cool, would not mind seeing how that was done. I was invited to the DnD world late into 2E and really started playing in 3E so my experience in 2E is a little fuzzy.

Grammarsalad

I still have the program installed on my computer but--and this is infuriating!--I can't find the cd. I got it in the last days of 2e. It has all rules core and optional, it's right there but I can't access it! I remember it had a (edit) attribute distribution program with all approved methods. Iirc, I think they even had a fifty-something point buy for high power campaigns...not sure but I think it was weighted.

Avenger_teambg

Moddable character generation would be the best. Though, i'm not sure how much you want to unhardcode, later this would be useful (if you create more than 1-2 games). Also modders would be awed.

Kalindor

I agree that fully moddable character creation would be very nice if it is feasible.

All it would take for a pseudo-moddable point buy system is the following:
1. Enable a toggle in the .ini file to fix attribute points to a customizable number.
2. Set up character generation to automatically deduct points to accommodate for the class-required minimums, if any.

This seems quite simple, although I am admittedly ignorant of the relevant character generation code. It would allow those who want a quicker and "more balanced" character generation method to have their druthers. This would, for instance, greatly cut down the character generation time in my LAN multiplayer games.

Adding weight to the point buy system would be rather more difficult, I'd imagine.

technophobe

This is what editors are for and what all min/max'ers use when confronted with the possibility of a non-munchkin character.

Kalindor

This is what editors are for and what all min/max'ers use when confronted with the possibility of a non-munchkin character.

Not sure what this means. A point buy system would allow all custom-created characters to function with the same stat limit, which could be set arbitrarily low in your game to dissuade munchkinism if so desired.

Senash

As most of the times, I'm coming with my usual argument BG char creation was about rolling. Yeah, sometimes ot was infuriating,but it just felt different (better for me tbh) than buying points. Besides, I think point buy system only works well if you get attribute points later with lvl up. But even than it's so standardized... I might be convinced with a weighted system, but a definite no from me for the linear.
Let's keep rolling!

DMZ

Not to mention the fact that if you want a challenge, you can take the first roll you get....

Elys

if you want randomness in the character creation then live with the initial rolls, with no re-roll possible, or only a limited amount of re-rolls available.

Or always start with an identical pool of point, that the player can spread on the attributes the way he wants within the game rules.

I really don't get the "keep rolling until you're happy" system, which is basically a bastard version of the two options above. In the end, this mixed system basically rewards with good attributes the players who mindlessly spend lot of times rolling.

I'm not saying the BG rolling system should be changed. I'm just expressing my view on the concept.

DMZ

If you want the set-point system, you can always redo your character in Shadowkeeper. Granted, not a really in-game approach, but this is already possible. BG should stay BG.

Kalindor

BG should stay BG.

I think the point of "Feature Requests" is to provide suggestions for features not included in the original Baldur's Gate.

In any case, adding a toggle in the .ini file for a fixed attribute total as I suggested would not interfere with people desiring the traditional character generation method.

ElectricMonk

I like this idea. As much as I like that rolling dice is inherent to D&D, there's just no way to regulate rolling character stats in a game. As such, a strong majority of people seem to just roll until they have the stats that they want (which is usually a bunch of 18's since they also abuse the lack of penalty for having 3 INT). This just completely defies the original intent of the system. To me, sitting for an hour as you roll the best possible stats, as well as exploiting game limitations in terms of not accounting for low stats is cheating. It just takes slightly longer than accepting your first roll, and then cheating your stats up once you're in the game with cheats. For some reason, though, people seem completely willing to do the former but not the latter (I suppose they don't consider it cheating since the game does allow infinite rerolls). A point buy system would be a good way to remove these exploits from the game.

Obviously, any sort of point buy/fixed attribute total system would have to take into account a number of things such as the fact that one of the reason the weighted point buy system is balanced correctly in third edition is that you got an attribute point every four levels, which makes a huge difference. I don't think it would take much work to implement a reasonable and balanced system that works in Baldur's Gate.

Also, on the topic of minimum stat requirements being essentially an exploit themselves, as they don't deduct the points they give you from your possible total, this should definitely be corrected. If they were building a point buy system, it wouldn't be too hard to incorporate this.

Tanthalas

@jaysl659

Getting an attribute point for every four levels wasn't the only thing making it balanced, I think that more important than that is that you get bonuses from stats more evenly in 3E, instead of 17 to 19 strength giving you a huge boost in BG/BG2.

ElectricMonk

@jaysl659

Getting an attribute point for every four levels wasn't the only thing making it balanced, I think that more important than that is that you get bonuses from stats more evenly in 3E, instead of 17 to 19 strength giving you a huge boost in BG/BG2.

I definitely agree, there are a few things to consider, but I don't think any of them make it impossible (or even all that difficult) to make the system. I just figured the additions of stats throughout the game was amongst the most relevant points.

iLex

I came up with a 'paired stats'-way of rolling for abilities that might be (a starting point for) a good method. It may exists somewhere already, but I don't know of a game that uses it.
This is how it works:
You get 3 'pairs' of statistics:

14 14
12 12
11 11

(I use normal face, italic and bold to indicate the pairs)

If you raise one of the stats, the paired stat will lower with the same amount.
So if you change one of the 14s to 15, the other 14 will go down to 13, raise it to 18, and the other will go down to 10
When you're done you can freely assign each value to the ability of your choice.

So if you want three 18s your totals will look like:
18 10 18 6 18 4 (18 18 18 10 6 4)

Other possibilities would be:
18 10 16 8 12 10 (18 16 12 10 10 8)

16 12 15 9 14 8 (16 15 14 12 9 8)

This allows for specialists (The utterly stupid yet incredibly strong fighter, the brilliant mage you can snap like a twig) and for a good combination of all round characters as well.
The exact numbers might need some work, but what do you think?


edit 1:
maybe the first pair should be changed to '13 13'
example scores would then be:
18 8 18 6 18 4 (18 18 18 8 6 4)
18 8 16 8 12 10 (18 16 12 10 8 8)
16 10 15 9 14 8 (16 15 14 10 9 8)

edit 2:
Pairs don't have to be the same number of course: '14 13' would also be a possible pair.

edit 3:
DISCLAIMER: I think any new method should exists as an optional alternative to the normal rolling.