Dual/Multiclass questions

ankheg

I've always wondered two things.

1. If I create a multiclass fighter/mage he can have maximum two proficiency points/weapon. If you dual class your fighter to a mage and surpassed the fighter level you can keep the higher points of course BUT you can still give more points like you where a fighter which is funny considering that your character is now only practicing wizardry.

2. If you created a fighter, gave for example two points to daggers, switched to mage and now you give one single point to daggers then (after surpassing the fighter level) you won't have you three points. Not even two you had as a fighter but ONE! So you will lose points.

So anyone please explain these thing to me.

SpaceInvader

pips over-writing.

Ps. As regards the F/M multiclass, there are mods that allow them to reach GM in their weapons.

ankheg

SpaceInvader said:

pips overriding.

Ps. As regards the F/M multiclass, there are mods that allow them to reach GM in their weapons.

Thanks, but what I really want to know is the concept behind this system.

atcDave

The "concept" is just a minor bug. I don't believe the details of it are spelled out in PNP, remember, mastery, grand mastery, all that stuff are optional rules in PNP. The expectation was that individual DMs would use their own sense to fill in the details so it would fit and balance in their own settings (I always use specialization/double specialization, an older optional proficiency rule for fighters).

I would guess it just fell through the cracks in BG development. As SpaceInvader suggests, the later classes pips are over-writing the first classes pips. I think that's more of a glitch or bug than anything deliberate. It has been addressed in several mods, it may eventually be addressed in an "official" patch.

ankheg

atcDave said:

The "concept" is just a minor bug. I don't believe the details of it are spelled out in PNP, remember, mastery, grand mastery, all that stuff are optional rules in PNP. The expectation was that individual DMs would use their own sense to fill in the details so it would fit and balance in their own settings (I always use specialization/double specialization, an older optional proficiency rule for fighters).

I would guess it just fell through the cracks in BG development. As SpaceInvader suggests, the later classes pips are over-writing the first classes pips. I think that's more of a glitch or bug than anything deliberate. It has been addressed in several mods, it may eventually be addressed in an "official" patch.

Maybe I should request it. Yeah, we never used those rules in pnp. It doesn't really bother me but it would be good if they fix it. I have a strict no-mod policy.

Allbrother

There's nothing to be fixed
It's not a bug, it's the one advantage of dual classes

TJ_Hooker

With regards to the part about a character that dualled away from a fighter being able to specialize up to 5 pips after they regain their fighter levels: there is some debate on this, but I think I remember someone saying that you could not do this in BG1, which would seem to show that it was something incidentally introduced by converting it to the BG2 engine. So you could argue that it's a bug.

elminster

Silchas said:

There's nothing to be fixed
It's not a bug, it's the one advantage of dual classes

Dual classes have an added advantage in that they can control how they distribute experience points to a greater degree than multi-class characters.

It isn't actually mentioned anywhere in the BG manuals that this is a specific advantage of dual classing over multi-classing. The closest thing to that is the mention that "Only fighters and fighter kits can have more than 2 slots in a weapon proficiency", but like most things in the BG2 manual its neither accurate (it forgot archers) nor does it exclude the idea of fighter multi-class characters getting more than weapon specialisation.

EDIT:

@TJ_Hooker I tried it out. You can't do this in BG1. In fact when dualing from a fighter you can't put a proficiency any higher than proficient if it is being given to you by your second class (so if I had a fighter dualed to a thief, if while levelling up the thief I put to blunt weapons I could only become proficient in blunt weapons, not even specialised).

moopy

You can make sure the pips don't over ride if you wait till the new class has enough xp to go to the level of the first class + 1

Like in your example if you made a fighter and gave them 2 points in dagger, and then got them to level 2 and dual classed to mage, and then before you ever hit level up made sure they had the xp to get to level 3, any pips the mage got along the way could be added to the current fighter pips.(I realize level 2 and 3 don't give the mage a pip, it was an example)

The pips you get WHEN you hit dual class, would definitely overwrite so you have to put them somewhere else.

ankheg

This overriding thing is quite annoying. I mean they just forget how to use a weapon? Giving multiclass characters the specialization would be more logical since they are practicing both their classes while duals are not.

Pantalion

ankheg said:

This overriding thing is quite annoying. I mean they just forget how to use a weapon? Giving multiclass characters the specialization would be more logical since they are practicing both their classes while duals are not.

Given how they "forget" how to improve their original class (and should not, incidentally, ever be able to advance their proficiencies ever again beyond "proficient"), and "forget" for 3+ levels how to do anything whatsoever relating to their old class, the fact they've forgot something as minor as how to hold a sword is comparatively minor.

ankheg

Pantalion said:

ankheg said:

This overriding thing is quite annoying. I mean they just forget how to use a weapon? Giving multiclass characters the specialization would be more logical since they are practicing both their classes while duals are not.

Given how they "forget" how to improve their original class (and should not, incidentally, ever be able to advance their proficiencies ever again beyond "proficient"), and "forget" for 3+ levels how to do anything whatsoever relating to their old class, the fact they've forgot something as minor as how to hold a sword is comparatively minor.

I don't agree. They don't forget those things, just concentrate all their efforts on the new class. XP system represents the learning process, so if they would want to practice their original class as well then they should have more XP to level up. That's what multiclass characters do.

Pantalion

Yes. And then they somehow never advance their original class, despite constantly practising it from then on, and can never, ever start advancing their original class ever, ever again.

ankheg

Pantalion said:

Yes. And then they somehow never advance their original class, despite constantly practising it from then on, and can never, ever start advancing their original class ever, ever again.

I see your problem. As a musician I can only say this: if you practice easy songs (or the same one) for your whole life, you won't get better, even if you are constantly use your skills which you have already.

Grulo

ankheg said:

atcDave said:

The "concept" is just a minor bug. I don't believe the details of it are spelled out in PNP, remember, mastery, grand mastery, all that stuff are optional rules in PNP. The expectation was that individual DMs would use their own sense to fill in the details so it would fit and balance in their own settings (I always use specialization/double specialization, an older optional proficiency rule for fighters).

I would guess it just fell through the cracks in BG development. As SpaceInvader suggests, the later classes pips are over-writing the first classes pips. I think that's more of a glitch or bug than anything deliberate. It has been addressed in several mods, it may eventually be addressed in an "official" patch.

Maybe I should request it. Yeah, we never used those rules in pnp. It doesn't really bother me but it would be good if they fix it. I have a strict no-mod policy.

You are missing out. Modding is one of the funnest things in Infinity Engine games.

ankheg

Grulo said:

ankheg said:

atcDave said:

The "concept" is just a minor bug. I don't believe the details of it are spelled out in PNP, remember, mastery, grand mastery, all that stuff are optional rules in PNP. The expectation was that individual DMs would use their own sense to fill in the details so it would fit and balance in their own settings (I always use specialization/double specialization, an older optional proficiency rule for fighters).

I would guess it just fell through the cracks in BG development. As SpaceInvader suggests, the later classes pips are over-writing the first classes pips. I think that's more of a glitch or bug than anything deliberate. It has been addressed in several mods, it may eventually be addressed in an "official" patch.

Maybe I should request it. Yeah, we never used those rules in pnp. It doesn't really bother me but it would be good if they fix it. I have a strict no-mod policy.

You are missing out. Modding is one of the funnest things in Infinity Engine games.

Not for me. I tried once when BG2 was new, created summon ankheg spell. But modding is something which isn't compatibile with me. I don't even use items with limited charges, potions, wands, magical ammunition, scrolls, raise dead spell etc. I am a narrow-minded and whimsical. So modding is out of questsion.

lDanielHolm

There are likely mods that fits your playstyle as well. They may be few and far between, but the modding scene is rather large--or has been, in the past.

Of course, if you simply don't want to bother, however well they fit you doesn't matter much.

ankheg

lDanielHolm said:

There are likely mods that fits your playstyle as well. They may be few and far between, but the modding scene is rather large--or has been, in the past.

Of course, if you simply don't want to bother, however well they fit you doesn't matter much.

Yeah probably there are, but I don't like the very concept. (not for this game anyway) Maybe creating... but playing, never. But I guess we are "offing" to much.

Lemernis

@ankheg I know your heals are dug in on this but I feel compelled to comment, lol.

Imho, the one mod you owe it to yourself to try is Sword Coast Stratagems, which is currently being retooled for BG:EE.

Having enemies behave far more intelligently increases immersion, at least for me. The more realistically enemies behave the more I buy into the fantasy.

The mod doesn't "cheat" the enemies into doling out double damage such as the vanilla difficulty slider, or other tactical mods. It just puts them more on a level playing field in terms of their behavior and equipment. SCS modifies the AI scripts so that, for example, mages use way more effective spellcasting routines against you. Or enemies revealed from the fog of war at the periphery of their group, when snipered by you, will call for help and come after you. Enemy meleers will also quaff potions just as your party does. The mod also offers some nifty and well realized optional features such as making the Chapter 4 and 5 NPCs available earlier in the game. The mod is highly modular and customizable, so you can select just how much more intelligent you wish for enemies to behave.

ankheg

Lemernis said:

@ankheg I know your heals are dug in on this but I feel compelled to comment, lol.

Imho, the one mod you owe it to yourself to try is Sword Coast Stratagems, which is currently being retooled for BG:EE.

Having enemies behave far more intelligently increases immersion, at least for me. The more realistically enemies behave the more I buy into the fantasy.

The mod doesn't "cheat" the enemies into doling out double damage such as the vanilla difficulty slider, or other tactical mods. It just puts them more on a level playing field in terms of their behavior and equipment. SCS modifies the AI scripts so that, for example, mages use way more effective spellcasting routines against you. Or enemies revealed from the fog of war at the periphery of their group, when snipered by you, will call for help and come after you. Enemy meleers will also quaff potions just as your party does. The mod also offers some nifty and well realized optional features such as making the Chapter 4 and 5 NPCs available earlier in the game. The mod is highly modular and customizable, so you can select just how much more intelligent you wish for enemies to behave.

I know that mod, and I have to admit that to idea of better AI is preferable, would it be standard feature in the game I would love it. About customization. Well, this is the very thing I am against. Don't get me wrong I don't want to ban mods or something, I know that most people love it. I had a topic where I explained better what I believe about that thing. Or Aosaw did instead of me if since I cannot really express myself in english.

http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/6335/please-dont-make-any-enhancement-optional#latest