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Why can't elves...

XavioriaXavioria Member Posts: 874
SO, the only other class I would probably like better than the "Cleric/Mage" would be a "Druid/Mage;" however the latter does not exist in-game, but i'm derailing...

Anywho, I have a question, and was wondering if anyone could give me an answer, because I have done a small amount of searching, and cannot find an answer to this: Why can't Elves multi=class their Clerics? Is there some sort of lore reason pertaining to this mystery? If anyone knows, I would love to know the answer, because it confounds the hell outta me XD
Post edited by JuliusBorisov on
JuliusBorisovRavenslightbooinyoureyesBlackravenRAM021
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Comments

  • szbszb Member Posts: 220
    I was about to ask something similar, why are elves restriced to only 2 specilaist mage class? Like the situation in your question, the restriction doesn't make sense for me. So I would like to know if there are any good reasons for these.
    Xavioriabooinyoureyeslolien
  • XavioriaXavioria Member Posts: 874
    @szb I actually did wonder the same thing myself, just not today lmao, but I think that question is a good addition or seperate question. I don't think Elves should be limited so much. @Grulo that's some interesting information, but I think 3rd edition got it dumb wrong... every race having no class restrictions seems really stupid in retrospect.

    Personally, the races after elves, half elves, and humans deserve more options... and why halflings can't be bards is stupid... BUT again, back to the question at hand, what is the RP reason behind the 2nd edition rules for lack of Cleric multi class support among elves?
  • XavioriaXavioria Member Posts: 874
    @Tome lol, they may have just picked human because it was the simplest, but others have said that the rules on racial restrictions comes from second edition D&D... so I'm not sure that's what it is, and at @Grulo that is a might good guess, and I had thought of something along the same lines, although a bit less specific lmao. I just want to make an elven Druid/Mage... I know that for PLENTY of obvious reasons, that's out of the question... I just figured that the main character should have a few extra choices since they were raised among humans.
  • PantalionPantalion Member Posts: 2,137
    Probably the same reason why Halflings, Dwarves and Half-Orcs are apparently incapable of being mages; Rampaging stupidity.
    moody_mageCatoblepasRAM021
  • lunarlunar Member Posts: 3,460
    Xavioria said:



    Personally, the races after elves, half elves, and humans deserve more options... and why halflings can't be bards is stupid... BUT again, back to the question at hand, what is the RP reason behind the 2nd edition rules for lack of Cleric multi class support among elves?

    Oh no, there is one famous halfling bard on the realms, the wonderful and beautiful halfling bard Olive Ruskettle! =D lol

    Umm I think it was a balance resson, if any. Elves are an inherently magical race with a lot of charm&sleep resistance. If they become a cleric/mage and have access to nearly EVERY spell available too, that would be a tad overkill, I think.

    JuliusBorisov
  • XavioriaXavioria Member Posts: 874
    half-orcs can be smart though, and they're part human. And aren't there orcish mages anyways? I don't think it's fair that they can't be mages...
    booinyoureyes
  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,318
    It's an arbitrary rule in the interest of distributing various restrictions among the races.
    FinneousPJDreadKhan
  • HadrianBlackwaterHadrianBlackwater Member Posts: 121
    @Xavioria: Well here could be no druid/mage because this class is Lore nonfriendly, as druid, you protect nature, you try to balance world and protect this balance, mage is doing other thinks, research new stuff and spell, something, which will not balance the world.

    About Elf Clerics, majority we know is priestess of Loth, so drow clerics, thats probably why elf didn't roll clerics much. Also Clerics serve human gods, not the elven. I dont really know exactly how Forgoten realms patheon looks like, but we know, that every race has their goods.
  • ankhegankheg Member Posts: 546
    I love those restrictions. "3rd edition" is a swearword amongst my friends.
    PhilhelmQuartzbooinyoureyes
  • atcDaveatcDave Member Posts: 2,146
    There was often some basis in fiction and mythology for the decisions made; but it was mostly a game balance thing. Most PNP games I've played modify or delete those restrictions, which is completely in keeping with the original spirit of the game. Obviously, a computer game needs to follow the core rules more closely to be an official product (or at least to be a GOOD official product) and it is far more difficult to modify or use house rules in a computer game (although many mods do incorporate common house rules I've seen).
    A few of my favorite PNP characters don't translate well to the computer because of this (most games I played had different or no weapons restrictions on clerics; but without a mod, I just can't do a spear wielding cleric!). But that's just how it is, every game system has its quirks. I remain a huge fan of the way levels, classes and combat work in 2E. I may make a lot of changes when running my own game, but I don't expect the computer to be able to do that.
    JuliusBorisovbooinyoureyes
  • UnknownQuantityUnknownQuantity Member Posts: 242
    Perhaps the elves don't worship the gods that grant clerical magic? I'm not sure why they can't be Druids though as they seem to be at one with nature.
    Xavioria
  • atcDaveatcDave Member Posts: 2,146

    Perhaps the elves don't worship the gods that grant clerical magic? I'm not sure why they can't be Druids though as they seem to be at one with nature.

    IRL, Druidism is a very specific, human religion. It may make sense to say that in a fantasy world with elves, they should follow it too, but originally in AD&D, elves had their own gods and religion, that apparently were more about arcane magic than the divine sort. Again, most PNP games I've played in or run change that, but when following the core rules it's what we're left with.
    elminster
  • XavioriaXavioria Member Posts: 874
    @HadrianBlackwater I have to disagree with your initial statement. The lore of this world isn't to say that arcane magic defiles nature in any way, would elves even USE arcane magic if that were the case? I remember in the lore and many in game characters saying the contrary, that elves are intrinsically linked to magic and very talented when it comes to magic. What I DON'T understand is why they can't be druids, as mentioned by @UnknownQuantity; although perhaps druidism isn't practiced or needed in their society. The only other reason I came up with for lack of Druids in elven society is the fact that in most fantasy gaming, Druids tend to be nomadic, wild people, whereas Elves can be either sophisticated and are not very brutish...
  • marfigmarfig Member Posts: 208
    edited December 2012
    The lore and class restrictions were almost certainly developed hand-in-hand, one to serve the other.

    On the specific case of Druids the decision was, judging from my post above, strictly arbitrary and the implicit understanding that Druidism was a cult reserved for humans. Other class/race restrictions would follow a similar design principle.
    Xavioria
  • DeucetipherDeucetipher Member Posts: 521
    I usually use SK/NI and go hog wild. I'm currently playing as an elven cleric/wild mage. It's a lot of fun, especially because wild surges affect the clerical side as well.
    XavioriaCatoblepasRAM021
  • KirkorKirkor Member Posts: 700
    Because that would make Minsc confused.
  • XavioriaXavioria Member Posts: 874
    @Deucetipher I'm currently using an Elven Cleric/Diviner myself... LOVE that extra spell per level... not to mention those Elven resistances. Took me a bit to get SK to work, but was well worth it!
    RAM021
  • krossbow7krossbow7 Member Posts: 6
    Really, Gygax's logic made no sense to me. He came up with the concept of D&D, but I really don't understand why so many people treat him as being so infallible for game design: Early editions were very fubar about many things (the draconic "Roll for each stat in turn! No you may not choose "this roll for strength and this one for int" ect! You wanted to be a fighter? Too bad, your stats say you have 7 str and 18 int!).


    And honestly, his statement about arbitrarily limiting other races is just incredibly dumb. If you want to balance the races, BALANCE THEM, don't try to shoehorn the into specific manners.

    I want to roleplay a half orc that was abandoned and found and raised by monks; Who is this gygax person to tell me that my character shouldn't exist? I want to play a druidic elf; Who is gygax to tell my he deems my concept unworthy of usage?
    RAM021
  • NecroblivionNecroblivion Member Posts: 210
    edited December 2012
    Well, Back then d&d wasn't what we know and love today. We now have years of experience. We saw many evolutions of the game, and we improved it. Back then they came with the thinking of a board game, you have this class and he does X and you have the other class and he does Y. Elves were a Class back then. They were a combo for mage and fighter. Dwarves, gnomes, halfling, they were all classes not races. All the rest was human (cleric, thief, wizard, etc').

    Then the game evolved. The idea of race and class separated came to be. And things changed. AD&D what we all call 2E is the very first idea of improving and changing this restrictions. To look for logic as to why elves can't be X in AD&D is the same as to ask why I have to roll dices in Monopoly for movement, because my "character" know where he want to go, those are the rolls of the game.

    This is why this game has editions in the first place. To improve upon the old ones. (Even though I fail to see how 4E is an improvement to 3.5E, but it might be only me).
    RAM021
  • atcDaveatcDave Member Posts: 2,146
    To me, 1E and 2E are exactly the D&D I know and love. Later incarnations seem all wrong. I still run (modified) 2E games and consider rolling one's scores to be hugely important. Maybe you wanted a fighter, but have a 12 strength and a 16 wisdom. Well you CAN run it that way, it might even be a lot of fun. I don't allow much point shifting (2 for 1; but ONLY to get minimum scores for a class). I think having to make lopsided or unconventional characters work is a highlight of the game (although I do allow players to just throw out scores and start over if it looks hopeless to them).
    But I would point out even 2E had like six different methods DMs could choose for generating characters.

    But Gygax himself was always an interesting dichotomy. He conceived and created the game. He stated several times that DMs could and should pick, choose and modify rules however they wanted to create the atmosphere best suited them and their group; and then he pitched a fit when people ran "non-standard" games. I think he understood the idea that people would want to tinker, but it insulted him when people actually changed "his" rules. The whole hobby owes him a debt, but few of us would still want to play exactly as he wrote it.
    JuliusBorisovelminsterKlorox
  • lDanielHolmlDanielHolm Member Posts: 225
    atcDave said:

    To me, 1E and 2E are exactly the D&D I know and love. Later incarnations seem all wrong. I still run (modified) 2E games and consider rolling one's scores to be hugely important. Maybe you wanted a fighter, but have a 12 strength and a 16 wisdom. Well you CAN run it that way, it might even be a lot of fun. I don't allow much point shifting (2 for 1; but ONLY to get minimum scores for a class). I think having to make lopsided or unconventional characters work is a highlight of the game (although I do allow players to just throw out scores and start over if it looks hopeless to them).

    Speaking purely of my own interests (and not to instigate a debate), playing like this all the time would drive me up a wall. I have nothing against rolling for stats--limits are what defines a character, after all--and while I can accept rolling "in order" as a fun way to occasionally switch things up or to get ideas for a character, having to do it all the time would simply make me frustrated. Freedom to choose what I play is important to me.

    While I was first introduced to roleplaying with AD&D 2E, 3.5E is without a doubt my favorite edition. The sheer amount of choice clinched it.
    RAM021
  • atcDaveatcDave Member Posts: 2,146
    Well gee, not to debate....

    But I feel exactly the opposite. I find all that choice boring, there is little motivation to play off the wall characters. And people tend to remember that paladin they played with a 13 strength and 18 dexterity; or the cleric with a 16 wisdom and and 17 strength.
    As I said, I do let people dump hopeless rolls (or even just rolls that won't work for them); but my many thousands of hours of DMing and playing 1E and 2E for over thirty years have yielded a huge variety of interesting and much loved characters.

    And I would never deny that you or anyone else could passionately enjoy the many hours spent playing your own favorite version of the game. I'm just saying, 2E has been more than completely acceptable for many of us, and there are reasons why some of us prefer it to the newer versions.
    elminster
  • lDanielHolmlDanielHolm Member Posts: 225
    atcDave said:

    But I feel exactly the opposite. I find all that choice boring, there is little motivation to play off the wall characters. And people tend to remember that paladin they played with a 13 strength and 18 dexterity; or the cleric with a 16 wisdom and and 17 strength.

    Like I said, limits are what defines a character, and you can certainly limit characters in that manner. But I wouldn't find a paladin with 13 Str and 18 Dex particularly memorable... at least not in a good way. I would find it frustrating.
    atcDave said:

    As I said, I do let people dump hopeless rolls (or even just rolls that won't work for them); but my many thousands of hours of DMing and playing 1E and 2E for over thirty years have yielded a huge variety of interesting and much loved characters.

    So have my ~15 years of playing entirely differently. :)
    atcDave said:

    And I would never deny that you or anyone else could passionately enjoy the many hours spent playing your own favorite version of the game. I'm just saying, 2E has been more than completely acceptable for many of us, and there are reasons why some of us prefer it to the newer versions.

    Right back atcha.

    I loved 2E, don't get me wrong, and I certainly wouldn't object to playing it again. But to me, 3E took essentially everything that I liked about 2E, and added so much more. Now when I look back at 2E, I find stuff that I still appreciate greatly, but which just wouldn't work in 3E. At the time, though, I loved 3E for moving away from those concepts. (For example, THAC0 and negative AC. It sets an atmosphere that I instantly associate with 2E, and for that, I love it, but actually using it in a game could be a pain.)
    RAM021
  • atcDaveatcDave Member Posts: 2,146
    I see 1E as the quirky, not quite fully refined version of the game, 2E is when they fixed all the problems and created a masterpiece. Thaco and negative AC is a completely functional mechanic that I find simple to run and easy to manipulate. I've played 3E, but not much. They lost me with point allocation, a single experience table for every class, and completely regular ability bonuses.

    Sorry. I'm really not trying to be insulting. It just never worked for me.
  • EdwinEdwin Member Posts: 480
    There are mods and Class Kits available that remove the racial restriction to dual/multis. I should say, there are mods that works with SOA and TOB, though I imagine it wouldn't be terribly difficult to modify the same resources as they are structured in BGEE.

    The somewhat arbitrary restrictions do get on my nerves a bit and one of my favorite old-school mods was one called 'hidden kits' that partially circumvented these restriction, though the "arch Mage" (cleric mage) was significantly OP.
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