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What makes BG so great!.....Well, one of those many things that make it so great!

MathuzzzMathuzzz Member Posts: 203
edited July 2012 in Archive (General Discussion)
I was encouraged to create this discussion after reading another recent one here about magical weapons.

Besides great working RPG system, atmosphere, music, sound, story, graphics(yes, you heard me, I think BG has dated, but great looking graphics, better than many RPGs which followed up till Gothic 2 I think) and everything else I didn´t mention, there is very important fact, that makes BG so great compared to all those modern RPGs which followed. And it is the fantasy settings, which unlike every single MMORPG and most of the singlepalyer RPGs either, has more realistic atmosphere. When I first played BG 1 demo, I didn´t know anything about the game or AD&D and played it as some kind of pure medieval game and later on with Gorion´s fight I noticed magic and stuff. And that is what makes atmosphere of this game so great. Realistic world, not full of super mages and thin naked pointy ear girls on every corner, weapons as large as persons who wields them, monsters jumping from everywhere and your character jumping on top of them even though wearing 80 pounds weighted armor. You meet citizens of the country, having their own stories and problems and just occasionally meet some mage or magical creature. Those few strong mages were well known to you from the lore and you created some respect to them. In this point, BG 2 went a little downfall, but still was able to sustain the atmosphere.

Towns, temples, castles, places has normal, realistic desing, with just some occasional one, which looked more high fantasy.

So it would be great, if the new adventure use the same formula. No plenty of magical new items or full of epic encounters. More important is the depht of the new characters, places and encounters which adds the realism to the land and realms. If the game has lesser magical weapons and items, you would value them more. Rather lesser items with original inventory design and story, than more items without anything special about them. NWN went downfall even more in this.

I hope you undestood what I meant.

By the way, sory if the text is badly written, but english isn´t my language.

Comments

  • mch202mch202 Member Posts: 1,455
    edited July 2012

    If the game has lesser magical weapons and items, you would value them more.
    I think this is the Key sentence, In BG2 I felt that on every corner you have a super powerful magical weapon, and it wasnt special anymore, just another magical weapon...

    on the other hand, BG2 is a game for a high level partys, so the weapons must be strong accordingly.

    What made BG1 so great?

    First you start the game in the wilds outside candlekeep and ask yourself WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON, you start your *journey* to the friendly arm inn through the roads, and than you start to explore the entire world map. In Bg1 it really felt like a journey because you actually walked to the towns, passed through roads... visited exotic places, met strange people and then killed them . In comparison, BG2 was much more linear in that aspect.. because if you wanted to go to Evermeet, you had to get a quest, and than click on the map to get there, much less freedom of movment.

    I liked that when you had in your arsenal medieval weapons such as flails, hammers, swords and some magic to aid your cause but not too powerful magic. I loved to save money to buy new armor, split mail or half plate mail...

    I liked to search for a taverns and stores once you enter a new Town such as beregost and in the city of baldurs gate you had alot of Taverns, and each feels like a real medieval tavern..
    , I liked to enter EACH of the houses ( and rob it ).

    The general atmosphere was of medieval days - and of adventure, while you revealed the story piece after piece.. dont forget that until the end you dont discover that you are a son of a god.. until than you are just a commoner like everybody else.

    In BG2 it was basicly: someone kidnapped you, you got freed, Imoen was kidnapped, find the kidnapper,kill the kidnapper( oh and get your soul back ). you dont discover anything special...

    but thats just me, other loved bg2 more because of the high level spells and abilitys, NPC interactions, etc..



    Post edited by mch202 on
  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,318
    Yeah, I completely agree. Not to take anything away from BG2, either, which was definitely a blast in its own way and had a lot of improvements and enhancements to the engine and whatnot. But you guys are putting your finger on it, I think. The magical items and spells are so much more valuable when they're relatively rare. For BG3 I think that starting with ultra high level play would be a mistake.

  • MikeMike Member Posts: 65
    I agree, I enjoyed BG2 but not like BG1. I really liked the freedom of movement in BG1.
  • SkinnyDSkinnyD Member Posts: 28
    There's no better way to describe the preciousness of magic items in BG than the fact that my party would inevitably still be using a particular early-game Ring of Protection +1 by the time it was punched through Sarevoks face much later. The first time I randomly found Ankheg plate mail was a welcome shock, and I think we can all agree that Spider's Bane is both pimp and fly.
  • IranicusIranicus Member Posts: 10
    It was definitely the way each event was entwined with other events involving the story that was one of the great aspects I thought, like mch202 mentioned which leads to one thing then another after exploring to your own delight and upon reaching certain "acts" in the "chapters".

    Then comes the rich culture from reading books to speaking to people and doing side quests, just gave the game a good depth and an enjoyous one at that including the problems of peoples lives like the one involving Valygar Corthala and the Planar Sphere in BG2 and Xzar from BG1 and his dealings with the Harpers in BG2 etc.

    Really do hope this type of design continues since story is one of the main elements of an RPG alongside the good mix of equipment and fighting etc :O)
  • paulsifer42paulsifer42 Member Posts: 267

    First you start the game in the wilds outside candlekeep and ask yourself WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON,

    IMO, this is what made Fallout3 and this game so great. That feeling of, where am I, what just happened, and how do I not die now? It's what pushes you to find that first city, to seek refuge, safety, and companions. Brilliant on the part of the devs.
  • MathuzzzMathuzzz Member Posts: 203

    I don't agree that monsters should level up with your characters. It didn't work so well with Oblivion, at least in my experience. There is something wrong about having the same bandit/creature you fought at the beginning of the game being able to kill you
    Exactly! Not only it is another element which makes the world more believable, it makes no sense. You take down a dragon and then got killed by bandit. In fits into the game like Diablo, but in game like BG and also Elder Scrolls it is out of place. It is the game with open world, where enemy scaling doesn´t make sense, because you can experience yourself somewhere else and than come back and take your revenge. Also, what makes you that much of a hero in Oblivion, when you still have to worry about going out of the city, because you have the reason feeling weak, because you still are :) .
  • TanthalasTanthalas Member Posts: 6,738
    Oblivion's system is really a bad example because it was simply broken. The enemy scaling looked like it assumed that you got perfect stats at level up, but that was something very unlikely.
  • xan212xan212 Member Posts: 65
    hm....
    + Each area was clearly designed by hand. Compared to modern games that randomly generate landscapes or re-use them, this added an element of love that we enjoyed.
    + The little things! Your party says funny things when you click on them. Organizing and re-organizing gear and learning spells. Pausing and un-pausing during battle.
    + Every once in a while, you’d come across a random and fun atmospheric element that had nothing to do with the game, like the Nashkel Carnival’s mage who summoned an exploding ogre. If you asked him to summon the ogre enough times, the ogre would lose his mind and start attacking everyone, forcing you to slay it. These sorts of tidbits go a long way to adding atmosphere, and we rarely see them in modern RPGs.

    I love Baldur's Gate!!!
  • xan212xan212 Member Posts: 65
    And... The music is the strongest part of the audio in the game. It is composed by Michael Hoenig, a German composer, and in the same style as majestic films, like Lord of the Rings. Ranging from the medieval-style market music in small cities and villages to the oppressing and snow tunes when trudging through forests or mountains, it is really a work of art. I would also give him an award for managing to create the music with most atmosphere in, namely the "Fort" one. You who have played the game and been at the Gnoll Stronghold, among other places, know which one I'm talking about. It's almost so thick that you can touch it.
  • ZafiroZafiro Member Posts: 436
    That little piece of parchment that rolls out with the NPC's name.
  • ShapiroKeatsDarkMageShapiroKeatsDarkMage Member Posts: 2,428
    The music of course!
  • CheesebellyCheesebelly Member Posts: 1,727
    I for one believe that what made Baldur's gate unique was the fact that it simply bashed new players with a club, sticking outside of the monitor, and literally hurt them whenever the new players died. I remember my first great adventure. Sir William Peterpath, fighter with 9 strength and 18 intelligence as well as charisma. I remember getting slaughtered by my first wolf. I remember getting surrounded by bandits the moment I was about to step through the great gates of the Friendly Arm Inn. I remember sending Xzar in battle with a Quarter Staff +1 received by a deceased Silke, against the Golems in High Hedge.

    The game literally smashed me, the hard way. I wasn't good the first try, so I retried, and keep in mind, I was 8 back then. I informed myself a bit, made some research, talked to other players from my city. Eventually I started understanding. I made a Cleric/Ranger, same name, better attributes next. Things were smooth. I hit Nashkel mines with my party pretty much set : Minsc, Dynaheir, Garrick, Imoen and Branwen. And I feel like even today that is a decently balanced party.
    I made my steps into the mines. Rushed them, as most my characters were still level 1. Third floor, the bridge with the two arrow traps. Garrick dies. You go south, reach the small cave with two spiders, Imoen dies. Go forward, Kobold Commando, the horror. Branwen dies. Everything is fine, we still have a chance. I rush towards floor 4. Traps are enabled, my PC survives first and second arrow traps. Magic missiles are slowly approaching and just as I hit the transition and the game quicksaves, a magic missile hits my PC and kills it. Anger from my side! But despite what happened... I was able to carry on. Minsc and Dynaheir lived. My PC was dead, but I could play on. I had to make a run for it, rushed to the temple of the Morning Lord. Didn't have money to resurrect. So I had to use the gem-potion exploit to get some money.
    Everything was fine in the end. Sir William hit Baldur's Gate. Swapped Branwen for Yeslick, a deceased Dynaheir for Tiax. This was my second great adventure in this marvelous game.

    Now, many of you probably will be thinking "That's crazy, your PC can't die with you continuing the game!". I know, I wouldn't believe myself. But I am not lying. It happened, as bizarre as it can be. Mind you, the game i was playing was the standard 5 CD, non patched version (didn't have internet) so might as well be a bug.

    Long story short... In my opinion, what makes Baldur's Gate so great is the fact that even if I failed, several times in fact.... it kept me playing. How many more games did have the very same effect for me? I have no idea. Very few. First two Gothic games hop into my mind. The recent Binding of Isaac. But that's pretty much it as far as I am concerned. It's unique in an impossible way. You suffer, but you learn from it, like in real life. And this is why I believe this game to be the best RPG of all times.
  • mch202mch202 Member Posts: 1,455

    Now, many of you probably will be thinking "That's crazy, your PC can't die with you continuing the game!".
    Are you a mind reader?? illithid or something??? ;)
  • CheesebellyCheesebelly Member Posts: 1,727
    edited July 2012

    Now, many of you probably will be thinking "That's crazy, your PC can't die with you continuing the game!".
    Are you a mind reader?? illithid or something??? ;)
    Wha-at? Nope, not at all! *strokes his tentacles* Nothing to see here!

  • IkonNavrosIkonNavros Member Posts: 227
    Well, after all it was the start of a legendary series of games which fascinates people around the world even until today and hopefully a long time to come :)
  • paulsifer42paulsifer42 Member Posts: 267
    Baldur's Gate and Baldur's Gate II were my first real RPG experiences. What made them so special? How they drew me in to their story. When an NPC was about to die, I CARED. I felt like they were buddies of mine. And the stories were incredible (I meant for it to be plural). To be honest, I was young enough when I played them that I don't remember exactly how they ended, but it isn't the end I remember, it's leaving Candlekeep and my mentor getting killed, it's fighting Kobolds in a mine (where I heard, "I think I'm coughing up blood." like a million times), and how mad I was when I didn't complete Minsc's quest and he left me. I think I restarted, because I liked him so much. It was a living breathing world that I loved being a part of. That's what made Baldur's Gate so great.
  • Djura83Djura83 Member Posts: 3
    1. The Writing - This is imperative, there was such great writing in the games, from chapter cutscenes to character dialogue (more noticeably the latter). The perfect blend of seriousness and lighthearted humor to break it up. The amount of depth added by great writing is just so clear in this game, to the point that Baldur's Gate 2 is often compared to a mix of a game and a novel. Characters with amazing monologues. Irenicus wouldn't have had much of an impact on me had his lines not been so intense and well written.

    Couldn't agree more, this is the main reason why Baldur's Gate is a game that is still played.


  • MikeMike Member Posts: 65
    Don't forget the manuals that came with the games! They were books that outlined many things in the game to great detail. I used to spend hours reading over the different classes and spells!
  • SpartacusSpartacus Member Posts: 23
    This is a sweet thread. I am in my 20's currently, and I remember countless hours of playing and replaying Baldur's Gate 1 and 2 during Middle School. Everything felt so immersive. I played Diablo 2 as well, but I didn't come back to Diablo like I have Baldur's Gate (every couple years I have to pick it up again). Recently, with the release of Dragon Age, Skyrim, Diablo 3, etc., I started wondering just what it was that set Baldur's Gate apart from every other game I had ever played. The core elements have all been discussed here - the story, the characters, the easter eggs (like clicking on character portraits).

    These things are obviously hugely important, but it's not exactly what I was thinking of. And then I realized why everyone always made such a huge deal out of "hand drawn backgrounds." Holy crap! There is not a single dungeon, castle, or city in Baldur's Gate that looks like any other!! When you go into the Temple of Amaunator, or Nalia's Castle, or any RANDOM dungeon, the game doesn't copy/paste tilesets that were used the create the last dungeon that you were in... You are actually in that room. After playing Diablo 3 I started to get so bored.... all the tilesets in the area are exactly the same... Leoric's Mansion looks the same as the Old Tristram Cathedral... Now, I'm not one to focus on graphics, but the unique, hand drawn art for every area in the game really stands out as a contributing factor.

    This, to me, is something that I absolutely love about the game, and completely and fundamentally alters the experience. This is also perhaps the saddest news from the Enhanced Edition, that the source art was lost and we won't be receiving a full HD remake. Nevertheless, and I extremely excited, and I wish to heck that the producers make enough money from BG:EE to tackle the project of BG3, in true 2D isometric glory. Anyway, just my take on the many reasons that Baldur's Gate stands apart from any other RPG on the market. :)
  • MathuzzzMathuzzz Member Posts: 203
    Spartacus said:


    These things are obviously hugely important, but it's not exactly what I was thinking of. And then I realized why everyone always made such a huge deal out of "hand drawn backgrounds." Holy crap! There is not a single dungeon, castle, or city in Baldur's Gate that looks like any other!! When you go into the Temple of Amaunator, or Nalia's Castle, or any RANDOM dungeon, the game doesn't copy/paste tilesets that were used the create the last dungeon that you were in... You are actually in that room. After playing Diablo 3 I started to get so bored.... all the tilesets in the area are exactly the same... Leoric's Mansion looks the same as the Old Tristram Cathedral... Now, I'm not one to focus on graphics, but the unique, hand drawn art for every area in the game really stands out as a contributing factor.

    This! One of the main reasons why I stated that I think BG graphics is great is that it doesn´t repeat itself. Again, it adds to immersion of the world. In those other RPGs(Elder Scrolls, Diablo...) how can be some place unique, when it looks and feels same as several other places, in case of older Elder Scrolls games, those dungeons became so boring after some time, I totaly knew how it will look like and what textures will be used before I entered it. Towns as well. When I look at some screenshot of BG, I will most likely recognize the place, can´t say the same about mentioned RPGs. As you said, it is pity, that source assets were lost. No need to 3D, imagine how would the game looks like with modern technology, higher resolution, animations and with some use of fancy lightning/shadows effects. If they chose this way for BG3, it would be the best looking game there.
  • paulsifer42paulsifer42 Member Posts: 267
    I thought of something new as I've been reading through the forum today. BG1 is VERY replayable, and I'm not just talking classes/races/stats/whatever, I'm talking about traveling companions. I still remember the first time I played the game, from Candlekeep to Jaheira and those two idiots you come across on the road (thief and a mage, I think), and I thought, "Who in their right mind would keep these two moron?" As I've read through today, I realized: Maybe on a fifth play through you'd want to gather all the idiots and see how you'd do. What a great game.
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