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Non obvious doors

Is there any way to make the game highlight doors/exits? There are a whole lot of places in the game where the only way you'd know an area is a transition point just by the mouse over icon in the pc version. But the iPad version has no such thing. I find my self tapping all over the place in spots where I know there ought to be door around until I get lucky. Or I end up looking up maps online about the exact locations. It's somewhat of a pain.

D3V11_
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Comments

  • LazarusNineLazarusNine Member Posts: 44
    This was dealt with in a patch for the iPad, which has yet to be made available on the App Store (but should be fairly soon). The solution was to increase the 'response area' of your tap. So, anything in a particular radius of your tap will get activated (doors, chests, drops, etc). On one level, this is great, because you don't have to be QUITE as precise with your tap to actually make contact with an object. However, it doesn't get past the issue of knowing WHERE you can go in the first place. At least with chests and physical doors (though not the actual entrances), we have the equivalent of the TAB button (the magnifying glass). However, there have been times I skipped over an entire quest, because I didn't know a particular house was capable of being entered. Perhaps the magnifying glass could highlight boundary zones as well (for instance entrances - not just doors - and the edges of maps). That would be my suggestion anyway...

    radumaD3V11_
  • BaronVHBaronVH Member Posts: 13
    I disagree that the increase of the response area is a solution. This would mean you would just have to randomly tap all over the screen and wait as the characters move there. There needs to be something that shows up when you hit the search button (which I think should be a toggle). My support for what they are doing is 100%; however, the iPad needs ALOT of work.

  • Garrison64Garrison64 Member Posts: 72
    To know whether you've touched the right spot you can simply pause the game and touch around. If you hit the wrong spot you will see all of your party's reticles show up. If you hit the right spot there will only be one reticle. This saves you from having your party wander all over while you look for a door. Unfortunately there probably won't be a better solution even with the patch. The only real solution would be mouse support and unfortunately the iPad doesn't offer that.

  • atcDaveatcDave Member Posts: 1,933
    Even in the PC version you need to check around the map sometimes to see when your cursor tip changes. The iPad is only slightly more complex, as Garrison mentions above, pause and tap until you find the place with only the single movement cursor.
    I agree it would be better if all doors were highlighted with the tab feature, but it is functional as is.

  • BaronVHBaronVH Member Posts: 13
    I respectfully disagree. The PC version had the mouse over function that was a critical function of the gameplay. With this on a touch screen another function must take its place. Don't get me wrong, it is great to play this on my iPad, but just randomly touching all over the screen is not fun, and I use the method above. I think this is also just one area that needs help, and I am sure it will be addressed. The fact is the iPad is much different than a PC, and a straight port cannot work. Even back when it was released, it was designed for a much larger screen. I bet it is very difficult to play on an iPad Mini, but I am confident they will deal with these issues.

  • ljboljbo Member Posts: 177
    A simple solution could be, when pressing the hour glass button on the iPad, not only to highlight visible doors and chests but also to display that cursor showing an open door with an arrow going through in front of hidden entrances.

    LazarusNineD3V11_
  • IllydthIllydth Member, Developer Posts: 1,641
    BaronVH said:

    I respectfully disagree. The PC version had the mouse over function that was a critical function of the gameplay. With this on a touch screen another function must take its place. Don't get me wrong, it is great to play this on my iPad, but just randomly touching all over the screen is not fun, and I use the method above. I think this is also just one area that needs help, and I am sure it will be addressed. The fact is the iPad is much different than a PC, and a straight port cannot work. Even back when it was released, it was designed for a much larger screen. I bet it is very difficult to play on an iPad Mini, but I am confident they will deal with these issues.

    So explain again how it's much different to drag a mouse pointer all over the screen till the hand changes to an interaction icon vs. tapping all over the screen till 6 movement icons turn into 1?

    It's still "random searching" all over the screen till you find the hidden object you're looking for. It's a problem with the original game, not Beamdog's design or the iPad interface.

    atcDave
  • pedrothedaggerpedrothedagger Member Posts: 2
    Illydth said:

    BaronVH said:

    I respectfully disagree. The PC version had the mouse over function that was a critical function of the gameplay. With this on a touch screen another function must take its place. Don't get me wrong, it is great to play this on my iPad, but just randomly touching all over the screen is not fun, and I use the method above. I think this is also just one area that needs help, and I am sure it will be addressed. The fact is the iPad is much different than a PC, and a straight port cannot work. Even back when it was released, it was designed for a much larger screen. I bet it is very difficult to play on an iPad Mini, but I am confident they will deal with these issues.

    So explain again how it's much different to drag a mouse pointer all over the screen till the hand changes to an interaction icon vs. tapping all over the screen till 6 movement icons turn into 1?

    It's still "random searching" all over the screen till you find the hidden object you're looking for. It's a problem with the original game, not Beamdog's design or the iPad interface.
    The difference is that mouse movement is continuous whereas tapping the iPad is a discrete action. I can sweep over hundreds, maybe even thousands of pixels in a second and I can detect a change in the cursor in a fraction of a second, whereas I have to move my finger and tap the screen each time I want to test a pixel on the iPad.

    It's possible that they can solve this with the smart tap location thingie they're working on, but it seems like it'd be a lot cleaner to pop up an icon over all doors - even hidden doors. It's possible they can't do that for whatever reason though.

    LazarusNineD3V11_
  • Garrison64Garrison64 Member Posts: 72
    After doing Durlag's Tower I have to agree that widening the touch area, while helpful with certain aspects of the game, is not a good substitute for what can be done with a mouse cursor. It is possible to search an area much faster with a mouse than it is by tapping around. Continuous tapping becomes tedious very quickly while dragging a mouse around is smooth uninterrupted searching that takes very little effort. The just need to make it so that mouse cursor hints pop up when we press the hint button.

    D3V11_
  • BaronVHBaronVH Member Posts: 13
    Illydth said:

    BaronVH said:

    I respectfully disagree. The PC version had the mouse over function that was a critical function of the gameplay. With this on a touch screen another function must take its place. Don't get me wrong, it is great to play this on my iPad, but just randomly touching all over the screen is not fun, and I use the method above. I think this is also just one area that needs help, and I am sure it will be addressed. The fact is the iPad is much different than a PC, and a straight port cannot work. Even back when it was released, it was designed for a much larger screen. I bet it is very difficult to play on an iPad Mini, but I am confident they will deal with these issues.

    So explain again how it's much different to drag a mouse pointer all over the screen till the hand changes to an interaction icon vs. tapping all over the screen till 6 movement icons turn into 1?

    It's still "random searching" all over the screen till you find the hidden object you're looking for. It's a problem with the original game, not Beamdog's design or the iPad interface.
    It is very impractical to touch all over the screen. Furthermore, the screen size is so much smaller that it makes it very difficult to hit the correct spot. The mouse drag is an easy method with the PC and was how the game was designed; however, without this functionality it changes everything. Please remember that I am a huge fan of the game and am enjoying it on my iPad. Nevertheless, we need new players to play the app, and if you examine their reviews, they are giving up. I want Planescape and BGII, but if new players don't get this, then that will be questionable. Hell, I also want the original Fallout and others. I think it can be fixed, but the interface on a touch screen must make allowances for changes in the gameplay. I like the idea of highlighted interactable areas with the search function as a toggle. The text font size needs an option to increse the size as well.

  • D3V11_D3V11_ Member Posts: 69
    I must put in my two cents on this topic, the more topics we as users put in the more impact we have on developers implementing a solution, and with a solution in mind I believe it is even more potent for a fix to be implemented.

    I completely agree that there should be a solution, such as highlight or displaying an icon on hidden doors when the magnifying glass (tab button equivalent for iPad) is taped, for the iPad hidden doors problem.

  • IllydthIllydth Member, Developer Posts: 1,641
    BaronVH said:

    Illydth said:

    BaronVH said:

    I respectfully disagree. The PC version had the mouse over function that was a critical function of the gameplay. With this on a touch screen another function must take its place. Don't get me wrong, it is great to play this on my iPad, but just randomly touching all over the screen is not fun, and I use the method above. I think this is also just one area that needs help, and I am sure it will be addressed. The fact is the iPad is much different than a PC, and a straight port cannot work. Even back when it was released, it was designed for a much larger screen. I bet it is very difficult to play on an iPad Mini, but I am confident they will deal with these issues.

    So explain again how it's much different to drag a mouse pointer all over the screen till the hand changes to an interaction icon vs. tapping all over the screen till 6 movement icons turn into 1?

    It's still "random searching" all over the screen till you find the hidden object you're looking for. It's a problem with the original game, not Beamdog's design or the iPad interface.
    It is very impractical to touch all over the screen. Furthermore, the screen size is so much smaller that it makes it very difficult to hit the correct spot. The mouse drag is an easy method with the PC and was how the game was designed; however, without this functionality it changes everything. Please remember that I am a huge fan of the game and am enjoying it on my iPad. Nevertheless, we need new players to play the app, and if you examine their reviews, they are giving up. I want Planescape and BGII, but if new players don't get this, then that will be questionable. Hell, I also want the original Fallout and others. I think it can be fixed, but the interface on a touch screen must make allowances for changes in the gameplay. I like the idea of highlighted interactable areas with the search function as a toggle. The text font size needs an option to increse the size as well.
    So I'm going to throw this out there. The mouse pointer drag all over the screen concept was a method by the original developers of the game to "hide" items in the interface. Take things like the Ring of Wizardry that are not SUPPOSED to pop up to a "Show me what's hidden" tab key. The change the mouse pointer concept allowed the user to find something without it being immediately obvious.

    That method served well to find hidden doorways and other objects covered by the graphics interface also. I agree with you that something needs to be done...having a doorway that you can only find if you know it's there creates a broken game. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for something being done with this.

    My argument, however, is more basic: The original game had hidden items that you had to search for on the screen. This was a design concept and intentional by the developers...more basically: Finding hidden items in a map was part of the game play of the game.

    You cannot suggest that Beamdog has done a horrible job implementing Baldur's Gate on the iPad because they've left items on the screen hidden that the "hints" button cannot find. That was INTENTIONAL. The fact that there is no cursor to drag over the screen may be a design flaw, but none of the suggestions posted cover the original design intent of the game:

    Sure you can highlight the entrance to the hidden doors, but what do you do for the location for the hidden items in the interface, like the ring of wizardry? Do you really put that under the hints button and make it easy to find? It was never SUPPOSED to be easy to find. Nor, I guess, were these hidden doors.

    The problem you identify is that there is nothing on the iPad that can mimic the "drag and change icon" search methodology that was part of the original release of the game. The closest you can get to that is "tap all over the screen till you find what you're looking for."

    While I do NOT disagree that this needs to be made easier, but what we're doing right now seems to be CLOSER to the original design intent of the game than highlighting these hidden objects with the tap of the screen would be.

    In essence the suggestions so far trivialize a certain small subset of the original game play. Feel free to continue to argue that that content SHOULD be trivialized...I will wholeheartedly agree with you, but highlighting hidden exits on the screen trivializes the hunt for hidden items that the original game was originally designed with.

    D3V11_
  • Garrison64Garrison64 Member Posts: 72
    I mentioned a possible solution before but I'm not sure it could be added to the game. My thought was to have a button that would lock the screen in place and allow you to drag you finger around the viewing area like a mouse cursor. Anything hidden would pop up when you drag over it just like it did in the original game. They have already implimented the drag to highlight function in the dialogue selection process so I know that is possible. All they need to do is make a way to lock the screen in place so it doesn't move around when you drag your finger and while it is locked your finger becomes a cursor instead of a movement device. I don't really like the idea of hidden things showing up with the hints button but I also don't enjoy tapping blindly all over the screen possibly missing a hidden switch by a couple of mm's. Tapping is just not effective as the game is currently. Possibly with the widened detection area it will be better but that remains to be seen. For now it is near impossible to find hidden objects.

  • D3V11_D3V11_ Member Posts: 69
    edited January 2013
    I did not mean to convey that the iPad version is badly made, i'm loving the iPad version, but it dose need some work still I believe.

    I agree with all what @Illydth said those are very good points, yes highlighting makes it to trivial, but something needs to be done (again agreeing with @Illydth) and highlighting was the Idea that other people offered and the first thing that came to mind.

    If anyone has a better solution that would keep the hidden doors hidden, but without having to tap randomly that would be grate.

  • ljboljbo Member Posts: 177
    @Illydth Imho you are wrongly putting hidden doors and hidden powerful items in the same bag. The vast majority of the hidden doors, if not all of them, were not meant to be hidden in order to make the game more interesting or difficult. It was a mere product of the game engine limitation, specifically the lack of camera motion, conflicting with the desire to design scenic cities. Please imagine a minute what Beregost would have looked like if all doors were on walls facing us: a rather ugly city by any stretch of the imagination. Hence the workaround of showing a special cursor when hovering over that door. Thus it seems to me that if pressing the spying glass were to mark the position of those hidden doors without spoiling the position of those powerful hidden items, the spirit of the game would be preserve. I mean we can't expect a literal port of the original game to the iPad: some elements of the interface have to be significantly altered to fit with the paradigm of finger gestures. If you think that hidden doors hunting is an important part of that game spirit, then I respectfully disagree with you.

  • scriverscriver Member Posts: 1,810
    In short, the "hidden" doors that's being discussed is not secret doors (which, if I remember correctly, go all bright and pruple whenever your character spots them). "Hidden" doors are just ordinary doors in the walls facing away from the camera, so all you can see is the roof of the building. Like, iirc, the entrance to Kaigan's shop/office in Beregost.

  • Garrison64Garrison64 Member Posts: 72
    I found Kaigan's shop by looking on the map. Once you walk past it one time it shows up as an icon on the map. That let me know a door was there so I just tapped until I found where it was. As long as they show up on the map like that those doors aren't really an issue.

  • scriverscriver Member Posts: 1,810
    @ Garrison64 -
    And how many of those doors do have map markers beyond Kaigan's?

  • Garrison64Garrison64 Member Posts: 72
    scriver said:

    @ Garrison64 -
    And how many of those doors do have map markers beyond Kaigan's?

    Not sure really but I've seen a few so far. Doors that I probably wouldn't have seen otherwise. It is helpful but I'm not certain how complete it is. Obviously it doesn't help with any doors that are truely hidden and I think that is the main point of contention here.

  • scriverscriver Member Posts: 1,810
    No, people were talking about doors hidden by perspective, not secret doors. And secret doors, by the way, turn bright purple to show you where they are when your character spots them, so that point is moot anyway.

    And yeah, my point above was about how few of the hidden - and we are still talking hidden by perspective here - doors actually have map markers. It would be much simpler if these doors, which are obvious and in plain sight from your characters perspective, were shown via a hint mechanism. Even if all of these doors had map markers (something obviously unfeasible, as it would clutter the maps), them showing up through hint mechanism would still be the more intuitive option for the player.

  • BaronVHBaronVH Member Posts: 13
    Illydth said:

    BaronVH said:

    Illydth said:

    BaronVH said:

    I respectfully disagree. The PC version had the mouse over function that was a critical function of the gameplay. With this on a touch screen another function must take its place. Don't get me wrong, it is great to play this on my iPad, but just randomly touching all over the screen is not fun, and I use the method above. I think this is also just one area that needs help, and I am sure it will be addressed. The fact is the iPad is much different than a PC, and a straight port cannot work. Even back when it was released, it was designed for a much larger screen. I bet it is very difficult to play on an iPad Mini, but I am confident they will deal with these issues.

    So explain again how it's much different to drag a mouse pointer all over the screen till the hand changes to an interaction icon vs. tapping all over the screen till 6 movement icons turn into 1?

    It's still "random searching" all over the screen till you find the hidden object you're looking for. It's a problem with the original game, not Beamdog's design or the iPad interface.
    It is very impractical to touch all over the screen. Furthermore, the screen size is so much smaller that it makes it very difficult to hit the correct spot. The mouse drag is an easy method with the PC and was how the game was designed; however, without this functionality it changes everything. Please remember that I am a huge fan of the game and am enjoying it on my iPad. Nevertheless, we need new players to play the app, and if you examine their reviews, they are giving up. I want Planescape and BGII, but if new players don't get this, then that will be questionable. Hell, I also want the original Fallout and others. I think it can be fixed, but the interface on a touch screen must make allowances for changes in the gameplay. I like the idea of highlighted interactable areas with the search function as a toggle. The text font size needs an option to increse the size as well.
    So I'm going to throw this out there. The mouse pointer drag all over the screen concept was a method by the original developers of the game to "hide" items in the interface. Take things like the Ring of Wizardry that are not SUPPOSED to pop up to a "Show me what's hidden" tab key. The change the mouse pointer concept allowed the user to find something without it being immediately obvious.

    That method served well to find hidden doorways and other objects covered by the graphics interface also. I agree with you that something needs to be done...having a doorway that you can only find if you know it's there creates a broken game. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for something being done with this.

    My argument, however, is more basic: The original game had hidden items that you had to search for on the screen. This was a design concept and intentional by the developers...more basically: Finding hidden items in a map was part of the game play of the game.

    You cannot suggest that Beamdog has done a horrible job implementing Baldur's Gate on the iPad because they've left items on the screen hidden that the "hints" button cannot find. That was INTENTIONAL. The fact that there is no cursor to drag over the screen may be a design flaw, but none of the suggestions posted cover the original design intent of the game:

    Sure you can highlight the entrance to the hidden doors, but what do you do for the location for the hidden items in the interface, like the ring of wizardry? Do you really put that under the hints button and make it easy to find? It was never SUPPOSED to be easy to find. Nor, I guess, were these hidden doors.

    The problem you identify is that there is nothing on the iPad that can mimic the "drag and change icon" search methodology that was part of the original release of the game. The closest you can get to that is "tap all over the screen till you find what you're looking for."

    While I do NOT disagree that this needs to be made easier, but what we're doing right now seems to be CLOSER to the original design intent of the game than highlighting these hidden objects with the tap of the screen would be.

    In essence the suggestions so far trivialize a certain small subset of the original game play. Feel free to continue to argue that that content SHOULD be trivialized...I will wholeheartedly agree with you, but highlighting hidden exits on the screen trivializes the hunt for hidden items that the original game was originally designed with.
    Please note that I never said Beamdog did a horrible job. I am enjoying playing this on the iPad. The fact remains that the current system is not functional for people unfamiliar with the game. My solution would only make a toggle which would highlight items already able to be highlighted by the search button. I would think the hidden doors would only become highlighted once they were discovered by the thief. If all we do is make it easier to find one ring and one set of armor but in the process it makes the game more enjoyable, then that is a good tradeoff. Basically a toggle that highlights all interactable items at once. There are certainly other areas that need attention as well, but this thread is only focusing on doors that are hard to see without the use of a mouse over.

  • D3V11_D3V11_ Member Posts: 69
    edited January 2013
    alright, let us all agree on a single unanimous solution, for the development teem to implement. I am sure the developers will not implement a solution if we as users are not clear as to what we as users want the solution to be.

    from what I have read on this thread so far(and I agree with what was said), we as users want:

    doors/entry ways (not objects or things that are intended to be difficult to find, thees are not part of the discussion) that are covered, by a roof or any other scenery, but are not intended to be hidden to the user to be highlighted when a button is tapped (example: the magnifying glass button). thees doors/entry ways do not include hidden doors until they are reveled to the user/character when the correct values are randomly generated behind the scenes.

    This post is just meant to summarize what we as users want the developers to do, to make it easier for them to do what we want. I believe we all want the same thing basically but are adding extra things beyond the basics to what the original question/request was. Thus I have tried to keep it to the bare essentials of what we all want.

    Pleas post your confirmation if my assessment of the problem and the solution is correct (or hit the agree button to this post if you prefer), or post your opinion if you disagree.

    scriverLazarusNinesharpiejas
  • Garrison64Garrison64 Member Posts: 72
    I'm fine with doorways hidden by character perspective being revealed via the hints button.

  • akuraakura Member Posts: 3
    I didnt find any difficult to enter the door. Only one circle near the door is the hint for right tap

  • D3V11_D3V11_ Member Posts: 69
    edited January 2013
    @akura yes you have no problem with the current implementation, and that's fine, but some of us are having discomfort (or even trouble) with this. Thus my question is do you have any objection to my proposed solution?

    *FYI: this is not a complaint, because the game is very well done in any version PC, Mac, iPad, etc..., rather I mean it as constructive criticism to improve the game EDIT: oh... I already said this... Lol*

    Post edited by D3V11_ on
  • LazarusNineLazarusNine Member Posts: 44
    @D3V11_ You're pretty much spot on. My further recommendation would be for other 'interactable' items as well, including the edges of screens and items that are meant to be clicked on, but which are not highlighted with the magnifying glass or do not have an icon over them (like a mouse-over on PC - Durlag's Tower is particularly bad for this). I think the same change that might be implemented for entrances can be used for the purpose of identifying clickable items as well (not just openable chests/barrels, etc). That said, these highlights were not in the original game, which would mean that they would need to add them in over the current interface, which may be a real pain to code in.

    Here's a way that might work when trying to discover the edges of the map that are clickable. Perhaps when you hit the magnifying glass, a small two or three millimetre bar going all along the edges of the screen could appear to define that space as clickable. It could be a light blue/green/purple highlight in the same way they've implemented it with other openables. In the past, this would have been achieved with a mouse-over compass or gear icon. Simply adding a faint highlight to the edges of maps (or specific areas on the edge of a map if it doesn't extend all the way across) when the magnifying glass is clicked would help out immensely.

  • cmk24cmk24 Member Posts: 605

    I mentioned a possible solution before but I'm not sure it could be added to the game. My thought was to have a button that would lock the screen in place and allow you to drag you finger around the viewing area like a mouse cursor. Anything hidden would pop up when you drag over it just like it did in the original game. They have already implimented the drag to highlight function in the dialogue selection process so I know that is possible. All they need to do is make a way to lock the screen in place so it doesn't move around when you drag your finger and while it is locked your finger becomes a cursor instead of a movement device. I don't really like the idea of hidden things showing up with the hints button but I also don't enjoy tapping blindly all over the screen possibly missing a hidden switch by a couple of mm's. Tapping is just not effective as the game is currently. Possibly with the widened detection area it will be better but that remains to be seen. For now it is near impossible to find hidden objects.

    I like this idea, this would also make tool tips and other scroll overs visible.

  • D3V11_D3V11_ Member Posts: 69
    edited January 2013
    yes @LazarusNine thank you, but let us stick to the basics and on topic which is not obvious doors for now. We can discuss other additions to this feature later but lets get threw this because not everyone agrees with some things that were discussed here when people started to give more complex ideas and extending the topic (we don't want to many "feature creeps" coming up all at once).

    so my question in the post I have wrote on January 4th still stands, pleas make your decision known for the development team, and lets eliminate this issue. so far what I have understood there are no objections and several people that are fore the proposed solution I have given on January 4th for this topic.

  • IllydthIllydth Member, Developer Posts: 1,641
    I'll throw my vote in for a "lock the screen and drag finger to find" solution with the "highlight by hint button" as a good second choice.

    LazarusNine
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