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Spell scrolling & Scaling

DMZDMZ Member Posts: 39
Spell Scrolling

Current behavior:

When casting a spell, player has to scroll/click on arrows quite a long time if they have a lot of different spells memorized.

Desired Behavior:

When using higher resolutions than 640x480, enable the spell list on the bottom to take advantage of the extra length, so less scrolling is required. Increase the number of available quick spell slots accordingly as well. This will prevent some irritation when a player has a large spellbook, like the case with Cleric/Mages and high level casters.

Scaling

Current behavior:

When increasing resolution, screen simply zooms out.

Desired behavior:

When resolution increases, up-scale the sprites and terrain instead of zooming out. Makes the game look better. Another possibility is to use a part of the newly acquired pixels as anti-aliasing.

Comments

  • TanthalasTanthalas Member Posts: 6,738
    The spell scrolling thing, or more accurately, a better user interface for spells has been requested before.

    The resolution thing will also be solved by BGEE having a zoom feature, though its unlikely that the sprites will display increased resolution.
  • MornmagorMornmagor Member Posts: 1,160
    Isn't the zoom feature only in ipads? Or not?
  • TanthalasTanthalas Member Posts: 6,738
    Its for all systems.
  • MornmagorMornmagor Member Posts: 1,160
    edited July 2012
    Cool! I can zoom in now to see my awesomeness while i butt-kick evil up close!

    Wait i am evil :x
  • ZeckulZeckul Member Posts: 1,036
    From what I understand the UI is fully re-done and re-designed, so there may not even be a bottom bar for spells. And it's been confirmed that everything will scale well on today's highest resolution displays.
  • pacekpacek Member Posts: 92
    From what I understand the UI is fully re-done and re-designed, so there may not even be a bottom bar for spells. And it's been confirmed that everything will scale well on today's highest resolution displays.
    Actually it's been confirmed that the source art has been lost, so quite the opposite is true.
  • agrisagris Member Posts: 581
    it would be quite nice if when the spell button was selected from the main toolbar, rather than a new bar appear with a linear list of the spells, a m x n box containing your spell icons 'floated' over the interface bars, to the upper right of the spells button. You can fit a lot more spells in a matrix than a line.
  • ZeckulZeckul Member Posts: 1,036
    edited July 2012

    Actually it's been confirmed that the source art has been lost, so quite the opposite is true.
    "scaling" meaning the ability to zoom in or out of course, i.e. maintain the size of elements relative to screen size regardless of resolution.

  • pacekpacek Member Posts: 92

    Actually it's been confirmed that the source art has been lost, so quite the opposite is true.
    "scaling" meaning the ability to zoom in or out of course, i.e. maintain the size of elements relative to screen size regardless of resolution.

    Sure, I misunderstood. The UI I am looking forward to seeing in HiRes. However DMZ's request to up-scale the sprites ain't gonna happen (well they can upscale them but without increased detail).
  • MornmagorMornmagor Member Posts: 1,160
    Upscaling can give a bit clearer image, unless you go over 20-25%, at least as far as i know.
  • AndreaColomboAndreaColombo Member Posts: 5,530
    Nowadays there are some very high quality upscaling algorithms available, so it all comes down to time vs. result for BG:EE. I hope the devs can find a suitable algorithm that improves quality while fitting their time constraints, so that we can get some improvement in video quality.

    Same as natively high resolution graphics? No, not even close.
    Better than vanilla graphics with no upscaling? Yes, visibly so.
  • DMZDMZ Member Posts: 39
    Upscaling is perfectly possible, but @AndreaColombo says, it's a matter of time vs result. And since the source art has been lost, they may just as well create new sprites in a much higher resolution. Scaling down works a lot better than scaling up.

    As for the spell bar, I'm not sure how much the UI is going to change, but I'd much rather keep the BG1 style with a few adjustments (customizable buttons, spell&scroll list.)
  • AndreaColomboAndreaColombo Member Posts: 5,530
    @DMZ - Trent Oster has already stated on these very boards that they are not going to create new character sprites. The reason is that they would look glaringly better than monsters, so either you create new models for every creature in the game to maintain visual consistency, or you do nothing. Given their time constraints, they chose to do nothing. This is why upscaling is our best bet right now.

    As for the UI, it is now completely soft-coded and, as per Cameron Tofer, it will be completely overhauled. It will most likely be natively HD (and ingame fonts are very likely going to be re-rendered in high resolution, since Cameron Tofer once stated on Twitter that he could locate the source files) and the skin is going to be moddable / customizable. I have already requested the option to enable the original stony skin, so hopefully it will be there.
  • ZeckulZeckul Member Posts: 1,036
    edited July 2012
    I wonder how the hq3x filter ( http://hiend3d.com/hq3x.html ) would do on BG's graphics. It does very well on straight lines and cartoon art, and is next to useless on photo-realistic material; BG's art is somewhere in between.

    Otherwise I don't know of any upscaling algorithm that can improve image quality. At best, upscaling an image doesn't lose information; it cannot create information that's not there in the source material.
  • AndreaColomboAndreaColombo Member Posts: 5,530
    Otherwise I don't know of any upscaling algorithm that can improve image quality. At best, upscaling an image doesn't lose information; it cannot create information that's not there in the source material.
    Upscaling is supposed to artificially add information to the source material via interpolation, trying to "figure out" the missing lines.
  • MornmagorMornmagor Member Posts: 1,160
    edited July 2012
    @DMZ - Trent Oster has already stated on these very boards that they are not going to create new character sprites. The reason is that they would look glaringly better than monsters, so either you create new models for every creature in the game to maintain visual consistency, or you do nothing. Given their time constraints, they chose to do nothing. This is why upscaling is our best bet right now.
    @AndreaColombo he did say that indeed, i guess he is right about characters re-done would look better than monsters, not that i would care about monsters if i had my character look better though. It could be a work in progress released in DLCs but anyway that's not the point.

    New characters would look better than old stuff, but won't new area art that they are making from scratch as they said look much better than the old area art as well? And won't the characters that stand in those areas look weird and dated also? They already looked worse compared to surroundings before, especially in BG2.

    This question bothers me as i'm trying to figure out how come it's ok to have new art for areas that much better, but having characters better than monsters or commoners would be a problem. I don't understand why it had to be a all or nothing job, since it could be done slowly in the backround and releasing it in parts. We never asked about better monster models anyway, but monsters like dragons look better in quality than players anyway so i don't see the problem.

    In my humble opinion always, if you really wanna do something, you do it. Let's hope they work something out eventually, although if that eventually is BG3, well, you never know if that happens anyway.
  • ZeckulZeckul Member Posts: 1,036
    edited July 2012
    Upscaling is supposed to artificially add information to the source material via interpolation, trying to "figure out" the missing lines.
    There's no general-purpose upscaling algorithm that can guess the additional information needed. They just interpolate the available data across more pixels. A theoretically optimal algorithm would result in no information loss; all existing algorithms lose some information in the process.

    To use an analogy, you don't get more pie by splitting the pie in multiple pieces. At best, you retain exactly as much pie as you originally had (and in practice you lose some because some crumbs fall off, some of it gets stuck on the knife, on the plates, etc)

    Hq3x is a special case - it assumes a particular art style and creates new information based on that heuristic. I'd be curious to see how it fares on BG art, but I don't have high hopes.
  • MedillenMedillen Member Posts: 632
    There's no general-purpose upscaling algorithm that can guess the additional information needed. They just interpolate the available data across more pixels. A theoretically optimal algorithm would result in no information loss; all existing algorithms lose some information in the process.
    Actually it is possible to "guess" the additional information needed, but it is still a guess and it will never be 100% correct. The easiest way is to take the mean of neigbours. The problem is, the actual resolution stays the same and it makes a "blurring effect", because of incertainty and noise.

    However, if you know some specific features in your image (high density of squares, for exemple) then you can apply specifics algorithms to regain them (those are generally called "filters"). While the reconstruction is not 100% perfect, it can still have very efficient results with 90% less information. A simple version of that is morphomaths, but it works only on very specifics features, so it isn't very handy to use. More complicated filters takes the hessian of the image to search for images edges, for example (I won't go into details, but images widdened this way are very neat on the general proportions, and suffers from less noise, search articles on "edge preserving filters"). It works quite well in medical imagery, at the cost of time. So yeah, basically @AndreaColombo is right.

  • ZeckulZeckul Member Posts: 1,036
    edited July 2012
    Actually it is possible to "guess" the additional information needed, but it is still a guess and it will never be 100% correct. The easiest way is to take the mean of neigbours. The problem is, the actual resolution stays the same and it makes a "blurring effect", because of incertainty and noise.
    I know what you mean, but you got the terminology backwards. When you upscale, the actual resolution increases, but the information content stays the same (at best). It's like looking at a photo with a magnifying glass: you make it look larger, but you don't create any detail that wasn't there to begin with.
    However, if you know some specific features in your image (high density of squares, for exemple) then you can apply specifics algorithms to regain them (those are generally called "filters"). While the reconstruction is not 100% perfect, it can still have very efficient results with 90% less information. A simple version of that is morphomaths, but it works only on very specifics features, so it isn't very handy to use. More complicated filters takes the hessian of the image to search for images edges, for example (I won't go into details, but images widdened this way are very neat on the general proportions, and suffers from less noise, search articles on "edge preserving filters"). It works quite well in medical imagery, at the cost of time. So yeah, basically @AndreaColombo is right.
    Upscaling a picture properly (say using Lanczos) doesn't create significant noise nor blur. So de-noising and de-blurring techniques such as those you mention would actually lose detail and reduce the quality of the output. I should know, I studied digital signal processing at university (specifically in the context of medical imagery enhancement :P ).
  • MedillenMedillen Member Posts: 632
    Upscaling a picture properly (say using Lanczos) doesn't create significant noise nor blur.
    I may be wrong, but I'm looking at Lanczos effect on some images (yeah, I didn't know about Lanczos one I'll admit) and it still looks blurry, even if less blurry then what I had in mind. Applying some edge oriented filters should sharpen the images and yield more "coherent" results, even if the information is a bit modified. I've other enhancement filters in mind but they aren't achievable for a in game use ^^'
    specifically in the context of medical imagery enhancement :P
    So did I, but I was more oriented in medical imagery in noisy context (low dose CT scan !).
  • ZeckulZeckul Member Posts: 1,036
    edited July 2012
    I may be wrong, but I'm looking at Lanczos effect on some images (yeah, I didn't know about Lanczos one I'll admit) and it still looks blurry, even if less blurry then what I had in mind. Applying some edge oriented filters should sharpen the images and yield more "coherent" results, even if the information is a bit modified.
    Edge detection on chain mail, trees and grass, really? I think it's a general principle in photography that sharpening filters are best used when downscaling and that when you upscale, you should rather smooth out details. For instance that's what Photoshop recommends for its Bicubic Sharper and Bicubic Smoother resizing algorithms.

    BG being so low-resolution as to being close to pixel art, I think the only enhancements that might give good results throughout are the pixel art upscaling algorithms like hq3x or 2xSal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pixel_art_scaling_algorithms#Pixel_art_scaling_algorithms). That's what emulators like NeoGeo use to make very old games look good on high-res displays. They tend to make the picture look like a watercolor painting if you go too far, but perhaps a combination of these and a more general upscale (bicubic/lanczos)?
  • IkonNavrosIkonNavros Member Posts: 227
    Higher resolution and more easier visibility... sounds good enough for me, as long as it dont will look ugly - because lets face it... stuff like the widescreen mod is impressive - But everything gets so damn small with it.

    So... Awesome BG:EE Team... impress us with impressive technical skills :D
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