Average hitpoints on level up
Bercon
Member Posts: 485
I want to play the game on the core rules, but with forced average hit point rolls on level up. For mages 1d4 they'd get 2.5 hit points per level. Since the game doesn't handle fractions well, I thought I'd make it so mage gets 2 on odd levels and 3 on even levels. However, this doesn't exactly solve the problem with multiclasses, because the hitpoints are divided by 2 or 3 which messes up the average.
So my question is, what is the exact formula of hit points per level up on multiclass characters? Including rounding errors, con bonuses etc., so I could come up with good way to get average hitpoints on level up for all classes. Is it just on each level up hitdice/3 rounded down and con bonus calculated separately (so I wouldn't have to worry about that)?
So my question is, what is the exact formula of hit points per level up on multiclass characters? Including rounding errors, con bonuses etc., so I could come up with good way to get average hitpoints on level up for all classes. Is it just on each level up hitdice/3 rounded down and con bonus calculated separately (so I wouldn't have to worry about that)?
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None Fighters get; Con>14 = +2HP MAX. (So anything above 16 wont give you HP bonuses)
Fighters; Con>14 = +1HP noMAX
And at 20, everyone gets regeneration (+1hp per minute).
The "main" HP gain you get is determined by your class HP dice.
Thus, for a normal fighter with 18 con.
1d10 (Fighter Hit die) + 4 (HP adj. for 18 Con) = 5 to14 HP.
For a Thief/Mage with con 18;
*(i dont remember the class hp dice, so im assuming the Thief is a D6 and the Mage is a D6)
Once he lvls up as a Thief;
(1d6 + 2**)/2 = 1 to 4 HP.
**Coz he is not a fighter!
Once he lvls up as a Mage;
(1d4 + 2)/2 = 1-3 HP.
Ofc if you add fighter to the mix, once he will lvl up as the fighter he will get the proper constitution bonuses.
Hope this is clear enough, if you want further clarification feel free to ask.
BTW, if you want to cheese your way out of it... when you lvl up just turn the game difficulty to the "Im a weakling" setting. And you will be guaranteed max HP.
I assumed that level up is calculated roundDown(hit dice / number of classes) and at minimum 1 hit point which gives us following table:
With these hit point rolls forced on level up you get exactly average hit points on every class and +-1 average hit points on every multiclass. Obviously the distance to average is larger on individual levels but in the end you are just one hit point away from the expected average. In addition, this only applies to characters that start from level 1. For NPCs that join you with god knows what hit points the difference to average is larger.
Download the "average hit points on level up mod" (extract to your override folder): http://ylilammi.com/mods/AverageHitpointsOnLevelUp.7z
Average HP at each level should be calculated like this:
Fighter, Cleric, Mage:
level <10 = ((HighestClassDieRoll + CONbonus)*level)/(NumberOfMultiClasses*2)
Thief:
level <11 = ((6 + CONbonus)*level)/(NumberOfMultiClasses*2)
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/258273-baldurs-gate-ii-shadows-of-amn/50292994
http://social.bioware.com/forum/Baldur039s-Gate-1-and-2/Baldur039s-Gate-General-Discussion-No-Spoilers-Allowed/BG2-Hitpoints-at-level-up-3119197-1.html
I'm fairly certain that my formula is correct, on level up you get Round(HitDice / NumberOfClasses). The constitution bonus is calculated separately and you get the best constitution bonus out of the classes you have. So with FMT you get Fighter con bonus etc. Thus, my table above should give you average HP including multiclasses. Dual classes and NPCs don't strictly get average with this though, but the difference shouldn't be that big.
I'll still have to run few tests to see if the theory applies in practice.
I don't know how the game handles HP increase at level up.
But if you recalculate all HP on each level up or CON change it shouldn't give you any rounding errors.
Max possible HP:
dual MC: (Class1Level*Class1Die + Class2Level*Class2Die + CONbonus(Class1Level+Class2Level))/2
tripple MC: (Class1Level*Class1Die + Class2Level*Class2Die + Class3Level*Class3Die + CONbonus(Class1Level+Class2Level+Class3Level))/3
Min possible HP:
dual MC: (1 + CONbonus)(Class1Level+Class2Level)/2
tripple MC: (1 + CONbonus)(Class1Level+Class2Level+Class3Level)/3
Average HP = (Min+Max)/2:
dual MC: ((1 + 2*CONbonus)(Class1Level+Class2Level) + Class1Level*Class1Die + Class2Level*Class2Die)/(2*2)
tripple MC: ((1 + 2*CONbonus)(Class1Level+Class2Level+Class3Level) + Class1Level*Class1Die + Class2Level*Class2Die + Class3Level*Class3Die)/(3*2)
I did some testing and it seems my math does indeed work out and does give you what it is supposed to, roughly average HP to all classes and multiclasses. It does diverge from the average somewhat during the level progression which is unavoidable, but the end result is accurate average hit points. For dual classes the error is +-3 hit points in the end.
Since the lvl up is done separately, i think its more logical.
Also i remember reading ages ago that multi-classing as a fighter will only give the specific const. bonuses when you lvl up as the fighter. And the notion remained embedded in me.
@Becron
I think you misinterpreted my chart as i did yours.
It seems you are only interested in how many were added per lvl, while i showed the total HP's.
It should have been more obvious to me based on your initial inquiry in the OP.
Also ive read this;
http://social.bioware.com/forum/Baldur039s-Gate-1-and-2/Baldur039s-Gate-General-Discussion-No-Spoilers-Allowed/BG2-Hitpoints-at-level-up-3119197-1.html
And the guy seems to be using the same formula i am...
"Just like multi-classed characters with two classes, these characters get the hitpoints of the class that levels up, but this amount is divided by three (for the number of classes) first.
Example: we create a fighter-cleric-mage with a constitution of 16. For each level the fighter gets, he gets 4HP (1D10 + 2(from the constitution) and then we divide it by three). For every level of the cleric, 3HP (1D8 +2 = 10 (max), now we divide by 3 and round down) and for every level of the mage 2HP (1D4 + 2 = 6 (max), divided by 3 and rounded down is 2) up until the breakpoint! Once every class reaches his breakpoint, each class will get 1HP/level (fighters normally get 3HP after the breakpoint, but we divide this by 3 (because of the number of classes). The other classes are analogue)."
Is what i was, at least trying to, explain.
Bare in mind his "warning" as well;
"P.S. I would like to stress one more time that I have seen several "illogical" level up results. Bare this in mind, especially for multi-classed characters."
I also remember being positively surprised when my FMT lvled up.
(Not that you were right... lol, i realized how rude this can be interpreted.)
What I think it should represent is not that fighter and Clerics get 0 hp at level 10 it's that the rolling stops there and instead they get a fixed amount of HP each level.
HOWEVER to my knowledge Mages should be included there, since iirc Thieves are the only ones that get an extra roll (they start getting fixed values at level 11).
Starting at level 10, Fighters get 3hp/lvl. Clerics & Mages get 1hp/lvl
Starting at level 11, Thieves get 1hp/lvl. Well your formula could also work... its basically like mine only i assumed that classes will be divided separately.
Since the lvl up is done separately, i think its more logical.
Also i remember reading ages ago that multi-classing as a fighter will only give the specific const. bonuses when you lvl up as the fighter. And the notion remained embedded in me.
Well, what I tried to do is give a formula to calculate possible min, max and avg. HP at any given time and not how much your HP should increase when leveling up.
As I said I don't know how the game really handles HP calculations.
If HP gain at each level up is calculated or read from a table while doing the level up and then the CON bonus is added separately afterwards the way to do this becomes entirely different.
(If it's read from a table it should be quite easy to change to what Bercon wants).
EDIT: Sometimes I hate the this forum and how it's impossible to handle tags properly and reliable.
Ideally you'd just set the HP gain on level up to half, for example fighter would get (1+10)/2 = 5.5 health on each level up. Since the game engine doesn't support fractions, you can only give 5 health or 6 health per level. If you alternate between those, you get 5 on odd levels and 6 on even levels, that would give you 5.5 health on average, right?
The problem arises with multiclasses. Instead of getting 5 or 6 health, it is divided with 2 or 3. It becomes 2 and 3 = average 2.5 with two classes, and 1 and 2 average = 1.5 with three classes. However these are wrong. With first one you'd expect 5.5/2 = 2.75 and with second 1.833. The error is not big, but it does create larger cumulative error since it happens on each level up. However, there is a way to correct this by selecting numbers that when divided with 2 and 3 produce average thats closer to the ideal averages. This is what I've done in the table I posted above. I selected suitable fixed hit points on level up for each class. With these fixed values, you'll get very close to actual true average hit points per level even on multiclassed characters. The error is +-1 hit point on max level.
So if you download the adjusted hit point tables and place them in your override folder, you will always get max_hitpoints / 2 on every class and every difficulty level. No more randomness and no more cheese by using Normal difficulty to give yourself max hit points which makes the game too easy.
Dual-Class:
Most combinations are strictly better than their single-class counter-parts.
Because of the way Hp is calculated,a nd the way the experience table works, virtually any dual class character which starts with a higher HP class and changes to a lower hp class will be STRICTLY better than taking a single class character in the second class.
Example: There is no reason not to put 125,000xp in the "Fighter" class if you would have been playing a Generalist mage, since you lose nothing, and you gain 96 to max HP, 5 proficiency slots, and 2 Style slots, as well as a 10 point head start in Thac0.
Multi-Class:
You are paying twice or three times as much per character level to level up, but getting only half or a third of the reward.
To see the consequences of this, consider a max constitution fighter at level 9, and assume average rolls.
Lvl 9 Pure Fighter:
Hp: 86
Xp Cost: 250,000
Fighter/Cleric
1st Class Lvl 9 Fighter:
Hp: 41
Xp Cost: 250,000
2nd Class: lvl 10 Cleric:
Hp: 31
Xp Cost: 250,000 (since it must be split evenly)
Total Hp: 72
Total Xp Cost: 500,000
Hp is the most important stat in the game. you've payed twice the Experience, and ended up with less HP and weaker Thac0 than the Pure fighter, less spells, weaker thac0.
If they wanted "Multi-Class" characters to be an "average" of what the individual classes were, then they should have reduced the experience requirement on each level by the same factor as the number of classes being taken. Then divide HP, Thac0, and saving throw bonus progression by the number of classes taken, and divide spell progression by the number of classes taken, because in such a system you'd be paying 1/2 ro 1/3rd and getting 1/2 or 1/3rd.
In the present system you really don't benefit much at all from Multi-classing, particularly since proficiency tables for Fighter/X Multi-Classes are horribly nerfed: They are capped at 2 points in most cases, but if you actually got what you paid for, they would all be capble of going to 6. Yes, not just grand-mastery, since you actually pay for 5 slots for a fighter, and 1 slot for a Cleric, for example, but you only get 2 slots.
Example again:
Fighter level 10
Cleric level 12 (I think, doesn't matter).
You paid twice as much Xp as a level 10 Pure Fighter, or 4/3rds the Xp as a Level 11 Pure Fighter.
You get:
2/5 the proficiency level.
7/8 the Hp
Inferior saves
Inferior Thac0 (you paid more and got less)
Diminishing Returns due to actions per round/turn limitations:
You've paid twice as much to reach any given character level, but you can still only take the same or fewer actions per 6 seconds.
Your number of actions per round (or turn) are never better than the Pure Fighter, and almost always worse. Pumping yourself with Draw Upon Holy Might doesn't matter since a Lawful or Good Protagonist gets 1 or 2 copies of the Spell as a free special ability anyway, which means the Pure Fighter has the biggest and most important advantage of a Fighter/Cleric anyway, and paid absolutely nothing for it. Even if we disregard this free spell-like ability for the Fighter, and assume he won't use it, the Fighter/Cleric can't match the SAME LEVEL pure Fighter's number of attacks, even after using Haste (let's argue for a potion) and Draw Upon Holy Might. Further, stopping to use potions and spells are entire rounds lost which are attack actions already performed by the Pure Fighter.
Of course, some of this is "fixed" by the broken "Cast and Attack" issue in BG2.
For a Fighter/Mage the scenario is worse. You can't wear armore and cast spells at the same time, which means "reasonable" role-playing of the character is impossible. You want to pre-buff yourself, then throw on your armor (you are wasting rounds and buff time doing this, so your mage levels are twice as expensive and less effective). Your fighter levels got less than half the proficiencies, remember, so when you are hasted, and Mirror Imaged, and now wearing armor, you are essentially back to being a Pure Fighter, but with inferior HP and inferior damage per hit.
While the Multi-Class system "works" to an extent for the first 10 levels, due to progressive experience table in the first 10 levels allowing the Multi-Fighter to "only" fall one level behind the Pure Fighter, it actually because weaker and tedious later on.
If you find yourself using your high level Fighter/Mage more and more as an "Expensive Mage who gets to wear the Helm of Balduran", then you may as well have been Dual Classing.
If you find yourself using him as an "Expensive Fighter who gets to use Mirror Image, Haste, and Stone Skin," well, there are actually Short Swords in the game which you can use as "switch weapons," which do that for free, and use your highest character level as their base...meaning for example you reach level 20 fighter in half the time as a Fighter/Mage, don't have to keep armor swapping, but do need to weapon swap, you get Mirror Image and Haste (from switch weapons) at level 20 instead of level ~14 at same total character XP, and your Thac0 is 6 points better, either 1vs7 or 0vs6, your proficiency is 3 levels better, meaning you will get 5 attacks per round when hasted as a pure fighter, using a switch weapon (Arbanes then switch back to main weapon). In contrast, a hasted Fighter/Mage of the same total Xp still gets I think 3 attacks per round, and as mentioned, a 6 point thac0 penalty compared to the fighter. Also, the Haste on Arbanes is a free action ability, meaning it works better with "cast and attack" than the hard-casted Mage spell, which means the Pure Fighter is a better Buffer than the Fighter/Mage or even pure Mage, unless the Mage or Fighter/Mage is also using Arbanes. Even if the Fighter/Mage is using Arbanes, he cannot match the damage output of the Fighter, and he cannot match the defensive abilities of the pure Fighter, if the pure fighter is using weapon swapping to abuse spell-like abilities.
In conclusion, I have developed a game system which uses a combination of D&D 2.x, 3.x, and 4.x rules to make multi-classing situation which has a better, more life-like, and more fair method of doing this, which I'll explain in a later post. this has gotten very long.
Thanks,
Wade
P.S.
What Qualifies me to make these assessments?
I have "completed" a "No Equipment Challenge" using a party of 3 custom made characters on Core Rules, and never having more than 3 characters in the party at any time. I "re-rolled" to get totals of 90 attributes. I've rolled natural 96 several times before so this seems very fair, given the challenge. This includes defeating the Unseeing Eye the Hard Way, without the Rift Device, at level 11, and both Kangaxx and the Twisted Rune (with no equipment) at level 15, not to mention defeating the Dragons, so I know how to play BG2 very, very well. I still have video recordings of some of these fights, which I had on Youtube, but took down. If anyone wants to see them for proof, I can put them back up.
PPS.
This is me playing Neverwinter Nights 2 with Nerfed Divine Casters:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnOkXCevU6o
I changed them to use basically the same equipment tables and HP tables as Wizards and Sorcerers.
The video proves they are still too powerful...It's not just at the beginning either. I didn't try to optimize that cleric build, I just quickly made it using the in-game defaults for the first 3 levels. Since an optimized "balanced divine caster" would be a dexterity-based character, this build was nearly a worst-case scenario, and I win the fights pretty easily.