Also in BG2, or at least the later stages, the problem is with bows in general is finding magic ammo with a high enough +x to damage enemies immune to, say, +2 weapons. This is why the Gesen shortbow is one of the best ranged weapons in BG2, as it counts as a +4 weapon (unlimited ammo).
And so is FireTooth, as it counts as a +6 weapon or upgraded +7 (!). And the damage bonus easily made up for the missing ApR compared to bows. Plus it can be acquired very early ingame
Oh really? I knew it has +6 THAC0, but thought that as it automatically fires +2 Fire Arrows it only counted as a +2 weapon, if it counts as a +6 (or higher!) weapon in terms of what it can hit, that makes it at least equal to Gesen... Is it definitely the case that it counts as a +6 weapon, in terms of what it can hit?
There are no good Long/Composite bows that can fire >+2 ammo automatically in BG2, though (you can get +2 quivers of plenty, but not higher).
For magic ammo, you can get at least the 2 unlimited +1 things easily. Still it doesn't make sense why the best armorsmith in Athkatla can't even improve a simple quiver or case o' plenty...^^ (but BG-tweaks can and it does only make sense!)
Yes, the quivers/cases of plenty only go up to +2 currently...
That's working incorrectly then. Heavy crossbows are supposed to have a 1/2 attack base attack speed, since they hit harder then light cross bows but have a slower rate of fire (at least in PnP)...AH...I see why...BG cannot apply an attack rate lower then 1. So..Heavy crossbows are actually a lot more powerful then they should be.
They're still not so good if you're trying to shoot a mage before they can cast a spell, as have a high (i.e. bad) speed score (even the Heavy Crossbow of Accuracy has speed 7 vs. Speed 3 for Light Crossbow of Speed), also there are no magic ones with 2 APR, unlike Light Crossbows. I do like Heavy Crossbows on Bards, though...
The fire-damage is just a fixed +2 value on top of the projectile (edit: added effect-value). Any regularly ranged should have the launcher entry, that only gives a static bonus to any projectile fired, that usually determines what it can hit.
Those magical weapons behaves a bit different They only have the ammo entry directly, and for Firetooth it's a +6 to-hit bolt with 1d8+4 damage (or +1 each value if upgraded) +2 fire-dam.
Yet, some ppl abuse the fact to 'gimp' the damage of Gesen, firetooth & co (at least they think they do *lol*). While it might add another 1d8+1/2 depending in the ammunition, now the value of the feeder ammunition counts in what it can hit I think tobEX or something else fixed it anyway, as I can't use other ammunition and wouldn't do so.
edit: same for gesen (+4 proj), Tansheron (+3)....though the latter lacks quite some damage.
The fire-damage is just a fixed +2 value on top of the projectile. Any regularly ranged should have the launcher entry, that only gives a static bonus to any projectile fired, that usually etermines what it can hit.
Those magical weapons behaves a bit different They only have the ammo entry directly, and for Firetooth it's a +6 to-hit bolt with 1d8+4 damage (or +1 each value if upgraded) +2 fire-dam.
So basically if you want an effective ranged weapon in the latter parts of BG2 you should be going crossbows or shortbows, not long bows...
@PugPug Clay golems are flat out immune to non-magical blunt damage. Mustard Jelly and Fission slime are immune to Piercing with 85% resistance to missile...but only a mere 30% slashing. Ochre Jelly and green slime are both immune to missile, with no other physical resistances. Skeletal enemies only resist 40% of slashing damage, while 50% piercing and 65% missile.
While piercing does have a slightly better track record vs some armor types, it most often amounts to a single point of AC difference, meanwhile the difference in spread of damage resistance (which I have by the way checked every single enemy in the game, Piercing IS universally the 2nd most resisted type in the game, with a large margin above slashing...of course neither can hold a candle to blunt damage which is just brokenly powerful, nothing is immune, only splint mail is slightly strong vs it, and the only monsters to resist it are equally resistant to all physical damage types. While missile damage is the flat worst damage type to invest in due to several creatures being immune or extremely resistant to.
So basically if you want an effective ranged weapon in the latter parts of BG2 you should be going crossbows or shortbows, not long bows...
Yo, until you get Gesen, there is also one really nifty Shortbow with an added +1 ApR - basically it's one of the first quests you usually do from the Copper Coronet guy. And as you can access Watchers Keep right away and killing 4 vampire mists shouldn't be _that_ hard you can acquire at least the +1 quiver right away too. I think in SoA itself, there are fewer enemies with high magical weapon immunity than in ToB, else at this point you also should have Gesen. On the contrary the high-end magical longbows (or composites) and +2 ammunition ain't that bad neither. Heartseeker, Ripper / Strong Arm comes in my mind, but they are still only limited to +2 to-hit. (or +3 in ToB measured by the ammunition) But then again, with the missing damage property of arrows, Gesen still wins IMO.
The fire-damage is just a fixed +2 value on top of the projectile (edit: added effect-value). Any regularly ranged should have the launcher entry, that only gives a static bonus to any projectile fired, that usually determines what it can hit.
Those magical weapons behaves a bit different They only have the ammo entry directly, and for Firetooth it's a +6 to-hit bolt with 1d8+4 damage (or +1 each value if upgraded) +2 fire-dam.
Yet, some ppl abuse the fact to 'gimp' the damage of Gesen, firetooth & co (at least they think they do *lol*). While it might add another 1d8+1/2 depending in the ammunition, now the value of the feeder ammunition counts in what it can hit I think tobEX or something else fixed it anyway, as I can't use other ammunition and wouldn't do so.
edit: same for gesen (+4 proj), Tansheron (+3)....though the latter lacks quite some damage.
That's the ammo Firetooth is using:
So, if you're against enemies that require a high +x magic weapon to hit, you're best off using Gesen/Firetooth without additional ammo?
yes. I think the highest requirement was +4 in ToB..the only 'minor' downside of at least Firetooth is the piercing stuff So often only the +2 fire-damage ticks in, while Gesen will encounter very very few enemies with full electricity immunity.
But natural piercing immunity is usually only limited to some races/constructs or boss enemies, else it can usually be dispelled or "Breach'ed".
That'd be the only downside of both weapons, still they are vastly superior to common bows/xbows.
yes. I think the highest requirement was +4 in ToB..the only 'minor' downside of at least Firetooth is the piercing stuff So often only the +2 fire-damage ticks in, while Gesen will encounter very very few enemies with full electricity immunity.
But natural piercing immunity is usually only limited to some races/constructs or boss enemies, else it can usually be dispelled or "Breach'ed".
That'd be the only downside of both weapons, still they are vastly superior to common bows/xbows.
Throwing Axes can be good in BG2 - Azuredge gets +4 damage vs undead (undead must save or be destroyed), though the character has to be good-aligned to use it, and the +3 Rifthome is pretty decent too. Also, currently throwing axes receive the strength damage bonus in BG2 (but not in BGEE currently).
The odd part is they get 'magically' transformed to piercing weapons too :P If someone would throw an axe at me and accidentally hit, I guess i won't be just 'pierced' ! Sometimes D&D is weird...
The odd part is they get 'magically' transformed to piercing weapons too :P If someone would throw an axe at me and accidentally hit, I guess i won't be just 'pierced' ! Sometimes D&D is weird...
I also think it's weird that sling bullets do piercing, not blunt weapon damage...
The odd part is they get 'magically' transformed to piercing weapons too :P If someone would throw an axe at me and accidentally hit, I guess i won't be just 'pierced' ! Sometimes D&D is weird...
I also think it's weird that sling bullets do piercing, not blunt weapon damage...
A small rock, projected with enough speed, is most certainly a piercing weapon. There's a reason they're called "bullets".
The odd part is they get 'magically' transformed to piercing weapons too :P If someone would throw an axe at me and accidentally hit, I guess i won't be just 'pierced' ! Sometimes D&D is weird...
Axes don't ever have a really good category. They are arguably piercing weapons, especially when thrown. They're sort of half piercing, half bludgeoning (a category I would call "cleaving"). A bludgeoning weapon with a wedge that's meant to direct the crushing force into a small location, for the sake of creating a piercing effect.
But without creating a new category of damage, you have to make a choice. It's hard to think of a thrown axe as slashing, and it's hard to think of a thrown axe as bludgeoning (makes me think you hit the target with the wrong part of the axe). On the other hand, when I think of an axe being hurled and lodging itself into the target with a mighty *THUNK!*, "pierced" is a word that comes to mind.
All thrown weapons have their damage type set to piercing by default, though ones with alternate melee states will have the proper damage type in their melee form. It's actually pretty easy to fix with NI if it REALLY bugs you too much.
yes. I think the highest requirement was +4 in ToB..the only 'minor' downside of at least Firetooth is the piercing stuff So often only the +2 fire-damage ticks in, while Gesen will encounter very very few enemies with full electricity immunity.
But natural piercing immunity is usually only limited to some races/constructs or boss enemies, else it can usually be dispelled or "Breach'ed".
That'd be the only downside of both weapons, still they are vastly superior to common bows/xbows.
Throwing Axes can be good in BG2 - Azuredge gets +4 damage vs undead (undead must save or be destroyed), though the character has to be good-aligned to use it, and the +3 Rifthome is pretty decent too. Also, currently throwing axes receive the strength damage bonus in BG2 (but not in BGEE currently).
That last part isn't accurate, throwing axes DO receive strength bonuses in BGEE. I just tested it out to confirm (at least they do in the black pits, I can't see it being different in another section the game).
But it's balanced by blunt weapons tending to be slower and/or have lower damage.
How many classes can become proficient in the weapon is a factor, too. Everyone can use a staff, plus it deals bludgeoning/blunt damage, so it gets a mere 1d6 for damage, whereas every slashing weapon gets at least 1d8.
But a club has exactly the same damage/speed as a staff and only uses one hand, making it great for druids, who don't have access to flails or maces or any other metal blunt weapons.
yes. I think the highest requirement was +4 in ToB..the only 'minor' downside of at least Firetooth is the piercing stuff So often only the +2 fire-damage ticks in, while Gesen will encounter very very few enemies with full electricity immunity.
But natural piercing immunity is usually only limited to some races/constructs or boss enemies, else it can usually be dispelled or "Breach'ed".
That'd be the only downside of both weapons, still they are vastly superior to common bows/xbows.
Throwing Axes can be good in BG2 - Azuredge gets +4 damage vs undead (undead must save or be destroyed), though the character has to be good-aligned to use it, and the +3 Rifthome is pretty decent too. Also, currently throwing axes receive the strength damage bonus in BG2 (but not in BGEE currently).
That last part isn't accurate, throwing axes DO receive strength bonuses in BGEE. I just tested it out to confirm (at least they do in the black pits, I can't see it being different in another section the game).
I've just tested in the main game, and it seems that now not only do slings get the strength bonus, but throwing axes and daggers too (but not darts, thankfully) - at least that's what the character record says - however, I tested this out on an earlier patch and this definitely wasn't the case, only slings got the strength bonus before (which I thought was bizarre).
It is actually...the staff of the ram is the 2nd most powerful item in the saga (1d6+10 for the +4 version, 1d6+12+1d4 for the +6 version). Only narrowly losing to the FoA +5 (which is also blunt, 1d6+6, +2 fire, +2 cold, +2 acid, +2 electric, +2 poison, 33% chance to slow on hit with no save (penalizes the enemy's AC by 4, in addition to some other nasty stuff)), which it is actually better then, for enemies immune to at least 3 elements. Carsomyr (1d12+5, +5 vs CE, or 1d12+6, +6 vs CE) is up there as well, but it's extra umph only applies vs chaotic evil alone, which is surprisingly rare alignment-wise. Most enemies are lawful or neutral evil...if they're even evil at all. So while it rivals the Staff of the ram in potential damage, it's only to a very small handful of enemies.
staves are 1d6 (based speed 3), vs 1d10 for Halberds (base speed 9) or 2hd swords (base speed 10). Blunt is stronger in the early game due to enemies wearing leather, chain or plate, all of which have no additional bonus or are actually weak to blunt, and the significantly faster speeds can allow you to hit the enemy and run away before they can strike you in return (the +3 staff has an effective speed of 0), and like all 2 hd weapons has a longer reach. Due to the greater speed it's easier to kite enemies with a staff then it is with a halberd or 2hd sword. So while your direct damage potential will be slightly less, until the sequel, it's a much more consistent and safe damage. You also kill the hell out of skeletal enemies, since they have rough resistances for everything except blunt.
It is actually...the staff of the ram is the 2nd most powerful item in the saga (1d6+10 for the +4 version, 1d6+12+1d4 for the +6 version). Only narrowly losing to the FoA +5 (which is also blunt, 1d6+6, +2 fire, +2 cold, +2 acid, +2 electric, +2 poison, 33% chance to slow on hit with no save (penalizes the enemy's AC by 4, in addition to some other nasty stuff)), which it is actually better then, for enemies immune to at least 3 elements. Carsomyr (1d12+5, +5 vs CE, or 1d12+6, +6 vs CE) is up there as well, but it's extra umph only applies vs chaotic evil alone, which is surprisingly rare alignment-wise. Most enemies are lawful or neutral evil...if they're even evil at all. So while it rivals the Staff of the ram in potential damage, it's only to a very small handful of enemies.
I claim with SCSII installed (or those nasty cleric/mage sub-modules), Carsomyr goes sky-rocket to the 1st position thanks to the dispel-procc, followed by everything that has some CC/debuff procc. Everything else, that relies only on damage is useless ^^ and preferable stuff that is one-handed, so shield-usage for at least 2 frontliners won't be a problem. I guess that includes FoA + Cele Fury. And that's the setup I currently am using - quite successful I must admit.
Else I barely remember using dispel in vanilla, everything else could be stripped by a mage, without the fear to just see another contingency trigger. It's a different experience
I'd just like to point out the lack of staff representation And they are the best 2handed melee weapons (blunt damage ftw)
Are you suggesting a staff is better than the equivalent of a 2-handed sword or halberd for a fighter?
Yes, I am
I don't agree. Obviously in certain scenarios the staff is more effective and I agree that it is stronger that what one might typically think for a staff but I don't see how it beats a 2handed sword. I just a ran a scenario with a fighter with a staff and a fighter with a 2 handed sword and while not totally dominant the 2 handed sword fighter got more of the kills up to the first 7 levels (32 for the staff, 41 for the sword). The quicker speed is nice but not crucial and THACO isn't much of an issue for a specialist fighter with high strength and the extra damage adds up with critical hits really making a difference (which become more common as you specialize).
You might not be factoring in the significant extra damage that a 2 handed sword does against larger sized monsters, it does 3d6 vs the staff which is just 1d8 I believe. And when that it is doubled it can be significant.
So again I think the staff has some benefits and if you had a character use the staff to strike mages early or something with its weapon speed that might be cool, but throughout the game as a whole I think the 2 handed sword would be more powerful.
@nptitim What is this "extra damage" that is done against larger monsters? I've never heard of it
@ZanathKariashi When you say clay golems are immune to non-magical blunt damage, do you mean that non-enchanted blunt weapons do not affect clay golems? I was under the impression that only blunt damage-dealing weapons can deal physical damage, but wasn't sure if clay golems were also immune to normal blunt weapons.
In at least some versions of AD&D (I'm not an expert), weapons have separate damage listings for small/medium sized targets, and large targets. Frequently, the only damage listed is that versus small/medium sized targets.
I don't know if the Baldur's Gate games include the variable damage ranges or not. But if they do, a 2-handed sword does d10 versus small/medium, and 3d6 against large targets. A quarterstaff, on the other hand, is d6 versus all targets. But hey, at least that's better than a club, which does d6 for small/medium, but only d3 for large. Ouch.
tldr version: 1.There's no 2handed sword that equals the staff of the ram And there are other nice staves as well 2.Blunt damage is the best damage. So staves > swords
In at least some versions of AD&D (I'm not an expert), weapons have separate damage listings for small/medium sized targets, and large targets. Frequently, the only damage listed is that versus small/medium sized targets.
I don't know if the Baldur's Gate games include the variable damage ranges or not. But if they do, a 2-handed sword does d10 versus small/medium, and 3d6 against large targets. A quarterstaff, on the other hand, is d6 versus all targets. But hey, at least that's better than a club, which does d6 for small/medium, but only d3 for large. Ouch.
I've never heard of that being implemented in BG, at least not unmodded BG
I've never heard of that being implemented in BG, at least not unmodded BG
Yeah, me neither. You'd think after 14 years it would be common knowledge if it had been implemented. All it would take is one use of Kai to prove one way or another.
Comments
There are no good Long/Composite bows that can fire >+2 ammo automatically in BG2, though (you can get +2 quivers of plenty, but not higher). Yes, the quivers/cases of plenty only go up to +2 currently...
Those magical weapons behaves a bit different
Yet, some ppl abuse the fact to 'gimp' the damage of Gesen, firetooth & co (at least they think they do *lol*). While it might add another 1d8+1/2 depending in the ammunition, now the value of the feeder ammunition counts in what it can hit
I think tobEX or something else fixed it anyway, as I can't use other ammunition and wouldn't do so.
edit: same for gesen (+4 proj), Tansheron (+3)....though the latter lacks quite some damage.
That's the ammo Firetooth is using:
While piercing does have a slightly better track record vs some armor types, it most often amounts to a single point of AC difference, meanwhile the difference in spread of damage resistance (which I have by the way checked every single enemy in the game, Piercing IS universally the 2nd most resisted type in the game, with a large margin above slashing...of course neither can hold a candle to blunt damage which is just brokenly powerful, nothing is immune, only splint mail is slightly strong vs it, and the only monsters to resist it are equally resistant to all physical damage types. While missile damage is the flat worst damage type to invest in due to several creatures being immune or extremely resistant to.
I think in SoA itself, there are fewer enemies with high magical weapon immunity than in ToB, else at this point you also should have Gesen. On the contrary the high-end magical longbows (or composites) and +2 ammunition ain't that bad neither. Heartseeker, Ripper / Strong Arm comes in my mind, but they are still only limited to +2 to-hit. (or +3 in ToB measured by the ammunition)
But then again, with the missing damage property of arrows, Gesen still wins IMO.
But natural piercing immunity is usually only limited to some races/constructs or boss enemies, else it can usually be dispelled or "Breach'ed".
That'd be the only downside of both weapons, still they are vastly superior to common bows/xbows.
If someone would throw an axe at me and accidentally hit, I guess i won't be just 'pierced' ! Sometimes D&D is weird...
But without creating a new category of damage, you have to make a choice. It's hard to think of a thrown axe as slashing, and it's hard to think of a thrown axe as bludgeoning (makes me think you hit the target with the wrong part of the axe). On the other hand, when I think of an axe being hurled and lodging itself into the target with a mighty *THUNK!*, "pierced" is a word that comes to mind.
It would also give them some advantage if they aren't considered piercing.
All thrown weapons have their damage type set to piercing by default, though ones with alternate melee states will have the proper damage type in their melee form. It's actually pretty easy to fix with NI if it REALLY bugs you too much.
That's for your to-hit rolls.
But it's balanced by blunt weapons tending to be slower and/or have lower damage.
How many classes can become proficient in the weapon is a factor, too. Everyone can use a staff, plus it deals bludgeoning/blunt damage, so it gets a mere 1d6 for damage, whereas every slashing weapon gets at least 1d8.
But a club has exactly the same damage/speed as a staff and only uses one hand, making it great for druids, who don't have access to flails or maces or any other metal blunt weapons.
staves are 1d6 (based speed 3), vs 1d10 for Halberds (base speed 9) or 2hd swords (base speed 10). Blunt is stronger in the early game due to enemies wearing leather, chain or plate, all of which have no additional bonus or are actually weak to blunt, and the significantly faster speeds can allow you to hit the enemy and run away before they can strike you in return (the +3 staff has an effective speed of 0), and like all 2 hd weapons has a longer reach. Due to the greater speed it's easier to kite enemies with a staff then it is with a halberd or 2hd sword. So while your direct damage potential will be slightly less, until the sequel, it's a much more consistent and safe damage. You also kill the hell out of skeletal enemies, since they have rough resistances for everything except blunt.
Else I barely remember using dispel in vanilla, everything else could be stripped by a mage, without the fear to just see another contingency trigger. It's a different experience
You might not be factoring in the significant extra damage that a 2 handed sword does against larger sized monsters, it does 3d6 vs the staff which is just 1d8 I believe. And when that it is doubled it can be significant.
So again I think the staff has some benefits and if you had a character use the staff to strike mages early or something with its weapon speed that might be cool, but throughout the game as a whole I think the 2 handed sword would be more powerful.
@ZanathKariashi When you say clay golems are immune to non-magical blunt damage, do you mean that non-enchanted blunt weapons do not affect clay golems? I was under the impression that only blunt damage-dealing weapons can deal physical damage, but wasn't sure if clay golems were also immune to normal blunt weapons.
I don't know if the Baldur's Gate games include the variable damage ranges or not. But if they do, a 2-handed sword does d10 versus small/medium, and 3d6 against large targets. A quarterstaff, on the other hand, is d6 versus all targets. But hey, at least that's better than a club, which does d6 for small/medium, but only d3 for large. Ouch.
Read what @ZanathKariashi wrote
tldr version:
1.There's no 2handed sword that equals the staff of the ram
And there are other nice staves as well
2.Blunt damage is the best damage. So staves > swords
@jflieder
Yes, clay golems can only be hit by enchanted blunt weapons