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Monk as a kit?

PantalionPantalion Member Posts: 2,137
So I've seen it bandied about the place that Monk is an ability oriented class and that it could be turned into a kit on one of the other classes without much issue, yet at the same I've never seen such a thing done.

So... Would it be possible? I assume there would need to be compromises to account for the UI (replacing trapfinding and stealth with uses per day of Find Traps and Sanctuary or somesuch), or make it a Thief kit with massive negative penalties to pick pockets, detect illusions et al, but would it work with a non-monk avatar doing the punching, or are there parts to the class that are hardcoded that cannot be replicated?

Comments

  • leddyhsleddyhs Member Posts: 54
    Why?
  • PantalionPantalion Member Posts: 2,137
    Well, ostensibly for dual and multiclassing purposes. If Monk functions as a kit a la PnP, then it becomes a viable dual class option and can easily be SK'd in for multiclassing, which adds between three and nine new class mixes to the game.
  • O_BruceO_Bruce Member Posts: 2,790
    So, you want to make Monk a thief kit... For what reason, excectly? For it being "abillity oriented class", whatever does it means? That's just needless.... And pointless.

    Monk is a monk, not some filthy rogue. Unless you count, example, shaoling kung-fu masters as a rogues, which is just plain stupid.
  • PantalionPantalion Member Posts: 2,137

    So, you want to make Monk a thief kit... For what reason, excectly? For it being "abillity oriented class", whatever does it means? That's just needless.... And pointless.

    Monk is a monk, not some filthy rogue. Unless you count, example, shaoling kung-fu masters as a rogues, which is just plain stupid.

    No, I'd be equally happy with the Monk being a Fighter kit, with the aforementioned Find Traps/Sanctuary concessions, and presumably a THAC0 penalty to bring it in line with Cleric THAC0 progression. As stated, the purpose would be to bring the Monk into line with other classes instead of its own hardcoded class.

    From this foundation, Monk sub-kits would then simply be a matter of modifying the original Monk Kit to supply further bonuses and penalties and appending them to the parent class.
  • AllbrotherAllbrother Member Posts: 261
    Apart from the lack of proper buttons, it would be easily accomplished
  • leeho730leeho730 Member Posts: 285
    Hmmm.... Monk AC, missile deflection and monk fists are hard coded. Monk AC bonuses are easy to replicate but not sure about monk fist. Sounds possible, though, freeing Monk slot so someone could use Monk class slot for other classes....
  • AllbrotherAllbrother Member Posts: 261
    You really need to google the meaning of hardcoded...
  • valamyrvalamyr Member Posts: 130
    As far as I'm concerned, Monks, Sorcerers and Barbarians are textbook examples of awful mechanical implementation in BG2, and their players are robbed of potential multiclassing possibilities as a result. I'd applaud any effort to correct that, obviously, but I'm not really expecting it to happen. The technical limitations appear likely to stay as-is, unfortunately.
  • PantalionPantalion Member Posts: 2,137
    @Silchas

    Excellent, thanks. Now I know it's not an exercise in futility at least.

    So I've zero experience modding the BG engine and the very concept gives me nosebleeds, so forgive me for the twenty questions but:

    I can see putting in the strings for the name and fluff easily enough, but would simply assigning a kit to use the Monk class 2DA handle the entirety/bulk of the actual abilities necessary, or would that not work since it's a primary class rather than a kit?

    I can't see where the game handles item restrictions from base classes (I assume that's hardcoded), but with the Shapeshifter kit restriction would stop them from using armour, and making it a Thief base class would handle the weapon proficiencies, the helmet restriction, and everything except the Staff and Short Bow etc?

    That leaves blocking out the ability to disarm traps, pick pockets, set snares.
    A small bonus to THAC0 and attacks per round (would the Monk's Fist weapon handle that?), and the capacity for losing your offhand.

    Thinking on it, would it be possible to just make a Monk (Kit)'s fist into a visible, but irremovable, primary hand weapon? This would just let them use their offhand and staves with one of their two weapon slots, or give them an offhand weapon attack whilst attacking with their fist in a primary slot.
  • AllbrotherAllbrother Member Posts: 261
    edited January 2013
    Since g3 is down, refer to this:

    http://www.shsforums.net/topic/7381-bg2-kit-creation/

    You can see how to add monk abilities to your new, monk kit
    There's also an "ability" you can use to disable the buttons you don't want (it'll grey them out ingame)
    There was a database for all abilities but for the life of me I can't find it right now (if anyone knows what I'm talking about, I'd appreciate a link)

    edit:

    Found it
    http://www.iesdp.info/

    But it's probably not the best way to do it. The Psionics Unleashed mod makes the psion a fighter kit and yet has a wizard spellbook and spellcasting button. How they've done it, I have no idea but it's proof of concept
    Post edited by Allbrother on
  • leeho730leeho730 Member Posts: 285
    Silchas said:

    You really need to google the meaning of hardcoded...

    Then, by all means, please locate 2DA files that manage monk fist weapon (MFIST#) and Monk AC bonuses in vanilla BGEE.

    I'll give some hints: monk fist is handled via fistweap.2DA, monk AC bonuses are handled using monkbon.2DA.

    Good luck locating those files in BGEE. Because you won't. Because it is handled internally.
    Trying to import GemRB files to BGEE override won't do a thing, because these files cannot be overriden.

    That's what I mean by 'hardcoded'...

  • leeho730leeho730 Member Posts: 285
    Pantalion said:

    Thinking on it, would it be possible to just make a Monk (Kit)'s fist into a visible, but irremovable, primary hand weapon? This would just let them use their offhand and staves with one of their two weapon slots, or give them an offhand weapon attack whilst attacking with their fist in a primary slot.

    That is an interesting idea and certainly doable. To test it, please give your fighter MFIST weapons into any weapon slot using Shadowkeeper or NI. It won't give fighter additional number of attacks (another thing BGEE engine handles internally) but one can simply duplicate monk fist item, give it a different name, and make it give additional number of attacks. A modder can write so that at certain levels fighter->monk will get different monk fist items.

    However, this leaves one problem. That is, if one create an item onto the slot, then existing item goes into the inventory. And monk fist item is not removable, permanently wasting an inventory space. And the way BGEE handles if excess items are given is that if there is no space, the item gets dropped onto the ground. That may include monk fist item.

    Well, good luck with that, but if you do find a solution, please let me know!
  • RiolathelRiolathel Member Posts: 330
    Monks are their own class. in PnP and in any crpg. /thread
  • AllbrotherAllbrother Member Posts: 261
    leeho730 said:



    Then, by all means, please locate 2DA files that manage monk fist weapon (MFIST#) and Monk AC bonuses in vanilla BGEE.

    I'll give some hints: monk fist is handled via fistweap.2DA, monk AC bonuses are handled using monkbon.2DA.

    Good luck locating those files in BGEE. Because you won't. Because it is handled internally.
    Trying to import GemRB files to BGEE override won't do a thing, because these files cannot be overriden.

    That's what I mean by 'hardcoded'...

    All of the monk bonuses can be mimicked with applied abilities in the new kit's CLAB
    The fists are a little trickier though, I admit
    I'm just thinking here, but shouldn't an applied ability using the opcode "Create Item in slot" to place the monk fists on the fist slot work?
    Again, just speculating, haven't actually tried it
  • leeho730leeho730 Member Posts: 285
    Silchas said:

    leeho730 said:



    Then, by all means, please locate 2DA files that manage monk fist weapon (MFIST#) and Monk AC bonuses in vanilla BGEE.

    I'll give some hints: monk fist is handled via fistweap.2DA, monk AC bonuses are handled using monkbon.2DA.

    Good luck locating those files in BGEE. Because you won't. Because it is handled internally.
    Trying to import GemRB files to BGEE override won't do a thing, because these files cannot be overriden.

    That's what I mean by 'hardcoded'...

    All of the monk bonuses can be mimicked with applied abilities in the new kit's CLAB
    The fists are a little trickier though, I admit
    I'm just thinking here, but shouldn't an applied ability using the opcode "Create Item in slot" to place the monk fists on the fist slot work?
    Again, just speculating, haven't actually tried it
    It should work, I've tested by giving monk fist item to a fighter (on NI) and it does seem to work...
    The fist is non removable and character cannot equip any item but since fighter comes with four weapon slots for the main hand that shouldn't be a problem....

    What I'm afraid is that by using create item in slot, previous monk fist (which is otherwise non removable) will be forced into inventory slot, and if inventory slot is full, then the newly acquired monk fist will be dropped onto the ground. Perhaps using remove item opcode to remove previous monkfist items from a character might help, but one needs to make sure remove item opcode activates BEFORE adding monkfist opcode works.... Hmmm might be worth a try...
  • CamDawgCamDawg Member, Developer Posts: 3,438
    Yes, you can give fists via spells; monk fists are mfist1-8. The problem is that fists do not persist through saves, so you have to add scripting to re-apply the fists if they disappear. The Arcane Fist kit of the SP Collection mod is a crude attempt at a spellcasting monk that I modernized from an old non-WeiDU mod that includes custom fists.

    Create item in slot will happily overwrite the existing item in the slot.
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