I'm working on a Mean Average Damage Calculator and weapons list, would forum users want this?

Debaser

Hey all.

So...I'm working on a definitive weapons list which will show mean average damage for every weapon, and have thorough explanations for actual damage for the top tier weapons.

But I also want to include a calculator which will factor in proficients, attacks per class / level, and strength bonus to show you exact mean average damage per round for whatever class and level you are.

This way you can make decisions better based on what kind of damage you will be doing. There's a mod another friend of mine made I'm testing out that will also be available concerning the tomes Depending on whether or not BGEE2 fixes carrying them over, but that's unrelated.

My question is, would some of you use this?

Oxford_Guy

Debaser said:

Hey all.

So...I'm working on a definitive weapons list which will show mean average damage for every weapon, and have thorough explanations for actual damage for the top tier weapons.

But I also want to include a calculator which will factor in proficients, attacks per class / level, and strength bonus to show you exact mean average damage per round for whatever class and level you are.

This way you can make decisions better based on what kind of damage you will be doing. There's a mod another friend of mine made I'm testing out that will also be available concerning the tomes Depending on whether or not BGEE2 fixes carrying them over, but that's unrelated.

My question is, would some of you use this?

Sure, it would be useful, but it's difficult to directly compare weapons with special abilities and how they work for different class, race and proficiency combinations, but if you figure out a way to do this in meaningful way, then it could be very useful as a "ready reckoner"...

Debaser

@Oxford_Guy - That's the plan...I want to list out special abilities and really explain their benefit...but also show what your character or NPC will be doing per attack with damage as well, so if it's a sacrifice play to do less damage but have more abilities you'll see exactly what you're missing Vs a potentially more direct damaging weapon.

Gram The Sword of Grief for instance is INCREDIBLY Strong...maybe better than Carsomyr but it does less damage. Though...it out damages Warblade even though it's a 1D10 weapon Vs Warblade's 1D12 due to it's specials.

Durenas

Also don't forget to factor in OP ability combinations like smite+whirlwind attack.

Debaser

@Amberion, I can get into those later, essentially I want a calculator which allows you to select a weapon type, then you can scroll and pick a weapon from a list...and it's Mean Average Damage will be included, you can input your strength and your bonuses will be factored...then you can input the number of attacks per round you have and your proficiencies in the weapon and it will adjust from there as well. Also Class and Race Bonuses will be included.

When it calculates I want a longer list showing all bonuses and variables included so you can really itemize what's giving you staying power.

Adding HLA at the end is doable...but I want the main guts to work first...and I want to make sure there is an actual demand before going so far as well. The site will have small banner ads via Google to keep it paying for itself sorta...but nothing obnoxious you can't avoid altogether.

Calmar

Oh, "mean" also means average... I was hoping for that calculator to be, like, real wicked.

So that calculator helps one to figure out which items are the most useful? Sounds like something really useful for IWD's Heart of Fury mode or the Black Pits, BG itself is not too difficult to me.

nptitim

I think it is a good idea (given the discussion in the other forum) although it would be nice to separate the weapons out in BGEE vs BG2, etc. When some people say "in the game" I think they are talking about the whole series and others are just talking about that section. You also might mention if a weapon is found super late that could be a factor ie do I want to specialize in a dagger for 20 levels just because I can find a good one at some point (just an example) I think that is worth mentioning.

Finally you could list maybe some possible broken stats or fixes you find. For example to me a "backstab" should not be able to be completed by club because you can't stab anything with a club. I am not sure how others feel about that. Slings should not get strength damage and their damage should be blunt if possible. Stuff like that. Then somebody could then make a mod to fix that stuff if they so desired.

Anyway those are all ideas but I think yours is a good one.

Debaser

@Calmar - Mean is the overall average, but the calculator should be a wicked pisser! =P It shouldn't affect percentage calculations with damage procs, but it will factor them in the final analyses (in the long form totals) because other calculations will have been done in advance to show what they add up to, etc. But yes it will be to delineate what people do per attack, and per round. And possibly show what damage up to ten or twelve rounds can be calculated out. (I haven't decided on that yet)

@nptitim @Oxford_Guy @Amberion - I will show weapons in BGEE1, and BGEE2 as separate lists. And I will make a weapon list from the Black Pits weapons as well in the same manner.)

Now you can import a character from The Black Pits into BGEE (I've been running around with a level 10 Beserker having a hell of a good time with a +2 Two-Handed Sword for instance. So...I think having a completest list for any and all DLC type extra adventures added in over time is a good way to do it.)

I will feature how procs work...and special abilities, but if they're not going to affect the calculations they won't be added into the calculator, rather just posted as notes for specific weapons with in depth detail.

For instance, Ixill's Spike +6, if it's proc doesn't stack per hit does not out damage the Impaler +3, even though it's enchantment to hit is inferior. But I can't yet determine if it stacks or not. If it doesn't, it's potentially near the same amount of damage (over time, but not quite as good still), but with effects that render enemies in a "sleep" state, or if it does stack, it could possibly be a lot more damage than Impaler with it's +10 Piercing damage per hit.

jflieder

Sure, I think this is a solid idea

Debaser

@nptitim I think you can back stab with a club for crushing damage...hitting someone in the spine really hard with a club could really do a number on someone I'm sure...and I think that strength should be a factor for slings (so we disagree there), however, I do agree these things should be mod-able if you don't want them to work that way mechanically.

However, I pledge that if this gets off the ground, I will be accurate to the damage things currently do.

Oxford_Guy

Debaser said:

@nptitim I think you can back stab with a club for crushing damage...hitting someone in the spine really hard with a club could really do a number on someone I'm sure.

"backstab" could mean whacking someone over the head with a club, same deal with quarterstaves (or maybe a sharp prod to the spine). Anyway, these are the only two weapons a cleric/thief can backstab with, so you'd nerf a while mutliclass if you couldn't backstab with these weapons...

Oxford_Guy

BTW currently these ranged weapons get the strength damage bonus in BGEE (this has changed from the launch build, where just slings got the bonus):

Slings
Throwing Knives
Throwing Axes

In Vanilla BG2 *only* throwing axes (and perhaps the Dwarven throwing hammer) get the strength bonus, and one magical sling, but who knows what they're going to do in BG2EE?

hansolo

Looks similar to this attempt:
http://www.sorcerers.net/forums/showthread.php?t=56090

His Spreadsheet is actually pretty good, you might have a look at it.

nptitim

I am torn on the ability to backstab with a non traditional weapon (non bladed weapon). Clearly for a normal unarmored person walking up behind them with a bat and hitting their head or even their spine would be devastating. However if a person is wearing a helmet and metal armor I think IRL you would be hard pressed to do hardly any damage to them in the same situation. However it still seems logical to me that a sword will find that crease in their armor or a weak part of the helmet and be devastating. We almost need an option where certain armor eliminates certain weapons as having the option to backstab.

Rhyme

The extra damage comes from the target being unprepared and vulnerable. The term "backstab" doesn't literally mean "stab in the back" as much as "surprise attack".

A club is very similar to a blackjack, and that's a quintessential thief weapon. Not normally a weapon you'd be afraid of, but sneak up behind somebody, and WHACK, they're knocked out in 1 quick hit. To me, that SCREAMS backstab. The only weapon I find more synonymous with backstabbing is a dagger.

Debaser

hansolo said:

Looks similar to this attempt:
http://www.sorcerers.net/forums/showthread.php?t=56090

His Spreadsheet is actually pretty good, you might have a look at it.

@hansolo THANKS! Anything to cut down on calculation time for reference will help!!!!

smeagolheart

it's not available anymore apparently

DinsdalePiranha

@Debaser: awesome idea, just don't forget to include damage bonuses from gloves somewhere. (I don't think it was mentioned anywhere here)

Son_of_Imoen

If you can actually pull off creating a calculator that takes all factors in account, it would be an awesome thing. Kudo's for trying and more kudo's if you succeed!

smeagolheart

this dead?

Debaser

No.....I'm still working on this.

Pantalion

Whilst the average damage is rather trivial to work out in one's head, expanding upon the actual, real impact of special abilities sounds rather fascinating.

mjs

like @son_of_imoen said, if you could set the stats, level, class, choose the weapon, then combine any items/powers/spells and give the APR, thac0 and damage output per hit/round...you'd have an app i'd pay download.

so for example:

stats: 16/17/15/15/7/15
level: 17
class: blade
weapon: gram the sword of grief
weapon type proficiency: proficient
effects: offensive spin
items: gauntlets of greater specialisation

equals

thac0:
APR:
damage per hit:
damage per round:
effects upon hit:
resistances:
other:

lordkim

http://www.planetbaldursgate.com/bg/inventory/weapons/

Ligg

Oxford_Guy said:

Debaser said:

@nptitim I think you can back stab with a club for crushing damage...hitting someone in the spine really hard with a club could really do a number on someone I'm sure.

"backstab" could mean whacking someone over the head with a club, same deal with quarterstaves (or maybe a sharp prod to the spine). Anyway, these are the only two weapons a cleric/thief can backstab with, so you'd nerf a while mutliclass if you couldn't backstab with these weapons...

There also the staff mace - effectively a 1 handed quarterstaff. It's the best cleric/thief backstab weapon.

Oxford_Guy

Ligg said:

Oxford_Guy said:

Debaser said:

@nptitim I think you can back stab with a club for crushing damage...hitting someone in the spine really hard with a club could really do a number on someone I'm sure.

"backstab" could mean whacking someone over the head with a club, same deal with quarterstaves (or maybe a sharp prod to the spine). Anyway, these are the only two weapons a cleric/thief can backstab with, so you'd nerf a while mutliclass if you couldn't backstab with these weapons...

There also the staff mace - effectively a 1 handed quarterstaff. It's the best cleric/thief backstab weapon.

Arguably the Staff of Striking is better for backstabs (for *all* thieves!)

BTW I'm assuming the Staff Mace does *not* benefit from the +1 THAC0 / +2 damage / -2 speed that putting one pip into two-handed weapon style gives most staves?

FinneousPJ

You could incorporate player THAC0 and enemy AC for an average damage analysis to account for weapons' attack bonuses.

Ligg

Oxford_Guy said:

Arguably the Staff of Striking is better for backstabs (for *all* thieves!)

Indeed it is. You can nearly take down a skeleton warrior in one go with it.

Debaser

mjs said:

like @son_of_imoen said, if you could set the stats, level, class, choose the weapon, then combine any items/powers/spells and give the APR, thac0 and damage output per hit/round...you'd have an app i'd pay download.

so for example:

stats: 16/17/15/15/7/15
level: 17
class: blade
weapon: gram the sword of grief
weapon type proficiency: proficient
effects: offensive spin
items: gauntlets of greater specialisation

equals

thac0:
APR:
damage per hit:
damage per round:
effects upon hit:
resistances:
other:

@son_of_imoen @Oxford_Guy @Ligg @FinneousPJ @mjs @lordkim @Pantalion @DinsdalePirahna @Rhyme @hansolo @jflieder @nptitim @smeagolheart @Calmar @Amberion

The way I have been going about it is to have two categories: Ranged and Melee.

You pick 1-25 for Strength, or 1-25 Dexterity OR both depending on the weapon type...and it should calculate in the figures for any bonuses to hit and for damage.

So it should be like this:

+ STR/DEX & STAT BONUSES
+ CLASS & LEVEL THAC0
+ WEAPON PROFICIENCY BONUSES TO DAMAGE AND TO HIT


NEXT - WEAPON & ITS MEAN AVERAGE DAMAGE ARE SELECTED, for example...a normal hammer with it's 1-4 Damage range will show 2.5 Damage Per Attack (MA)

All Special abilities of each weapon are detailed, if any cause damage their own Mean Average Damages will be listed.

Then that total gets multiplied (x) by TOTAL NUMBER OF ATTACKS PER ROUND.

So...the final list of variables would be like this:

+ STR/DEX & STAT BONUSES
+ CLASS & LEVEL THAC0
+ CLASS DAMAGE AND HIT BONUSES
+ WEAPON PROFICIENCY BONUSES TO DAMAGE AND TO HIT
+ WEAPON (MEAN AVERAGE DAMAGE)
+ WEOPON ENCHANTMENT TO HIT
+ WEAPON ADDITIONAL DAMAGE (MEAN AVERAGE)
+ WEAPON SPECIAL ABILITIES
x TOTAL NUMBER OF ATTACKS PER ROUND

And the totals would be broken down with a one-sheet like this:

= TOTAL MEAN AVERAGE DAMAGE PER ROUND
= TOTAL MEAN AVERAGE DAMAGE AND CHANCE TO HIT PER ATTACK
= ADJUSTED MEAN AVERAGE DAMAGE DUE TO SPECIAL ABILITIES (Think Carsomyr or Daystar here)
= BREAK DOWN OF VARIOUS TYPES OF DAMAGE AND ANY ADDITIONAL DAMAGE THAT WOULDN'T COUNT BUT NEEDS TO BE EXPLAINED IE: Ixylls Spike, etc.
= EXTRA NOTES ON SPECIAL ABILITIES

Giving you total Damage Averages, and listing each different damage type as well as giving the smaller Mean Average Damages as separate figures. In addition chance to hit will be calculated and extra notes on the special abilities will be made.

This is not easy and I don't have tons of spare time, but I'm doing it bit by bit.

Son_of_Imoen

What form will your calculator take? Are you creating a Windows program, an Excel sheet, an app for iPaD or for Android?

[Deleted User]

I'm definitely looking forward to this. It'll greatly speed up a lot of the mental calculations I do when thinking up a party.

You might want to have a "Miscellaneous damage bonus" line in there somewhere where people can add in the bonuses for things like the gauntlets of weapon expertise and temporary buffs from spells.