Still don't get the Attack Rolls

Thyranis

all right, this has been bugging me ever since I first played the game 20 years ago, I finished it many times but as much as I hate to admit it I never could figure out what the Attack rolls meant!!

I get that the lower your Thac0 is, the better cause it goes (D20 roll + enemy AC = hit if greater than your Thac0).. Then why is it that, for exemple, I get the most basic creatures hit me EVERY FREAKIN TIME with my healer/off-tank Branwen ??? She has a magical full plate with a shield giving her an AC of -4 and she keeps getting hit like she would be wearing nothing!!

for instance, I played 10 minutes ago and every enemy attack roll got a +3 ???? Like "Attack Roll 11 + 3 = hit" (it was Black Talon elites I assume their Thc0 was around 10) .. so what the hell, shouldnt it read "Attack roll 11 - 4 = miss" ??

thanks

atcDave

I think Black Talons Elite have a Thaco around 16. With a -4 AC Branwen should not be getting hit often. Do you have the difficulty turned way up? Something just isn't right there.

valky

Your roll just confirms your thac0 - enemy AC, ie
- you thac0 is 15, enemy AC 5 (=10), so you have to roll a 10 or higher to hit
- thac0 of 7, enemy AC of -4 (=7-(-4)), your roll must confirm 11 or higher
(in theory you are right with roll+ac=>modified thac0 .. but it's not _that_ simple)

edit: Don't forget that various armor gives penalties and bonus against different attacks, so a visible AC of -4 does not always apply!

A full attack roll in BG2 with unlocked features would look like:

http://www.valkyries.de/attack_roll.jpg (stupid photobucket resizes it always)

Maybe it's more clear that way ^^
Needed to snip the other stuff, never really paid attention to this, but the game engines should determine your unmodified base-Thac0 - enemy AC, to what you have to beat with your roll. Any modifier is taken in account in the roll then. Either way, the outcome is the same. Kinda millions of years ago, since i played tabletop...

edit: don't mind the attack of opportunity, cause I was attacking a friendly target and got the first strike against a unprepared target. Should be rarely the case in normal combat and then only in some special cases, like a casting enemy.

valky

To confuse you even more
Black Talons Elite's unmodified base thac0 is 14, but if they are shooting with a bow (1 of their 2 basic weapons), they get +1 from their Dex +2 for being specialized in bows and +1 for having a longbow. So the final Thac0 turns out to be 10 instead when firing a bow.
If they are forced to melee, they only get *uhm* +1 for having a STR of 17, so 13 modified Thac0.

[I hope I don't tell you bogus, but usually the table entries getting modified ingame by the proper weapons, stats and so on, same like shadowkeeper shows you only your real base thac0.]

Zutti

Probably has Branwen holding a sling.

Edit for clarity: Enemies get massive bonuses in melee if your character is wielding a ranged weapon. Additionally, your character receives massive penalties for attempting to use a ranged weapon in melee.

EnterHaerDalis

I'm just going to leave these here, don't mind me!

Wilbur

Zutti said:

Edit for clarity: Enemies get massive bonuses in melee if your character is wielding a ranged weapon. Additionally, your character receives massive penalties for attempting to use a ranged weapon in melee.

I had forgot about this. It's very nice to know since I just started with an archer as MC.

Torin

I don't know about Talon elites but on Bandit camp map my tank with -4 AC was getting hit by Bandit Archers on a roll of 14...

Thyranis

EnterHaerDalis said:

I'm just going to leave these here, don't mind me!

Haha that pretty much sums it up :P

I'm sorry but I still can't make any sort of sense in it, I believe that all bonuses and stuff are added to the "+ ##), but the fact that I keep getting hit almost every time with an AC or -4 and that the enemy still has bonuses to their roll is bryond me... something is wrong, other stats get in the way or there is some sort of luck factor involved.. I dunno

but btw no Branwen does not have a ranged weapon, even though she'd probably be better off with that cause she cant hit squat

TJ_Hooker

Thyranis said:

I'm sorry but I still can't make any sort of sense in it, I believe that all bonuses and stuff are added to the "+ ##), but the fact that I keep getting hit almost every time with an AC or -4 and that the enemy still has bonuses to their roll is bryond me... something is wrong, other stats get in the way or there is some sort of luck factor involved.. I dunno

but btw no Branwen does not have a ranged weapon, even though she'd probably be better off with that cause she cant hit squat

First, I'd just like to say that the attack rolls that you see do not have AC factored in so there is no reason to expect a "-4" (due to having -4 AC) to show up in the on-screen calculations. Also, how many black talons are attacking Branwen? If you have 3 or 4 of them shooting at her at once, they can all individually miss a fair amount, but you'll still see her getting hit regularly, and for big damage because of their ice arrows.

BJMJD

Just I noted a mistake on your formula, it is :

D20 roll - enemy AC = hit

It is a " - " and not a " + ", in this way when you have a negative AC the roll should be greater (and inversely for a positive AC).

You said you have a full plate, but do you know the bonus at AC is depending of the type of damage?
For more information, see this link:

http://www.sorcerers.net/Games/BG2/armor.php

You should be able to see the real modification at the AC in the " Character Record "(near of the bottom).

I hope it help you.

TJ_Hooker

The thing is the calculations being displayed on-screen are not "d20 - AC=hit"
It's: "d20 + [THAC0 modifiers] = attack roll"
From there it's: IF [attack roll] >= ([Base THAC0] - [Enemy AC]), then it's a hit.
This last step (the comparison) is not displayed on-screen (other than simply saying "Hit" or "Miss").

At least, I'm pretty sure that's how it works.

Thyranis

TJ_Hooker said:

Thyranis said:

I'm sorry but I still can't make any sort of sense in it, I believe that all bonuses and stuff are added to the "+ ##), but the fact that I keep getting hit almost every time with an AC or -4 and that the enemy still has bonuses to their roll is bryond me... something is wrong, other stats get in the way or there is some sort of luck factor involved.. I dunno

but btw no Branwen does not have a ranged weapon, even though she'd probably be better off with that cause she cant hit squat

First, I'd just like to say that the attack rolls that you see do not have AC factored in so there is no reason to expect a "-4" (due to having -4 AC) to show up in the on-screen calculations. Also, how many black talons are attacking Branwen? If you have 3 or 4 of them shooting at her at once, they can all individually miss a fair amount, but you'll still see her getting hit regularly, and for big damage because of their ice arrows.

Wow that changes everything, how is it not calculated in the attack roll, the enemy's Thac0 and your AC are the primary stats involved to know if he hits you or not ???

and yeah they are usually a bunch of 4 or 5 at once shooting at you but that doesnt change anything to their individual attack rolls unlike in 3rd Edition where you can be flanked and such, the only thing that changes is if you use a ranged weapon in melee where you got great maluses...

TJ_Hooker

@Thyranis see my post above yours for info on what the calculations look like.

With regards to being attacked by multiple black talons: I didn't mean they were recieving some kind of bonus to attack because of how many they were. I just meant that the more there are, the more likely at least one of them will hit you. So if there's 4 or 5 of them, they can all be missing like 2/3 of the time, but you're still going to be getting hit once or twice around.

Thyranis

valky said:

Your roll just confirms your thac0 - enemy AC, ie
- you thac0 is 15, enemy AC 5 (=10), so you have to roll a 10 or higher to hit
- thac0 of 7, enemy AC of -4 (=7-(-4)), your roll must confirm 11 or higher
(in theory you are right with roll+ac=>modified thac0 .. but it's not _that_ simple)

edit: Don't forget that various armor gives penalties and bonus against different attacks, so a visible AC of -4 does not always apply!

A full attack roll in BG2 with unlocked features would look like:

http://www.valkyries.de/attack_roll.jpg (stupid photobucket resizes it always)

Maybe it's more clear that way ^^
Needed to snip the other stuff, never really paid attention to this, but the game engines should determine your unmodified base-Thac0 - enemy AC, to what you have to beat with your roll. Any modifier is taken in account in the roll then. Either way, the outcome is the same. Kinda millions of years ago, since i played tabletop...

edit: don't mind the attack of opportunity, cause I was attacking a friendly target and got the first strike against a unprepared target. Should be rarely the case in normal combat and then only in some special cases, like a casting enemy.

Wow ok, I'm starting to get the piocture, didnt check that pic earlier... wowzers, thats a lot of modifiers taken into account... any way to have it displayed like that in BG 1 ??

valky

in pure BG1 it should work...only in BGEE not (modified BG2 engine); try:
- open baldur.ini
- under [Game Options] insert: Extra Combat Info=1

As far as I know it's a 'forgotten' feature from BG1 anyway In BG2 it can be emulated by TobEX, so the option become valid.
Am kinda interested as well, how a roll from BG1/Black Talon Elite would look like. If only my CD1 wouldn't be damaged, guess grabbing the ISO isn't illegitimate in that case :>

Masklin

These attack rolls are frustrating me to heck.

Situation: My lvl 2 paladin uses fists on a lvl 2 elf ranger (without proficiency in fists, but that doesn't seem to matter...???).

My lvl 2 paladin has 18 strength and base thac0 19, meaning thac0 = 18.
My elf ranger has no armour, but 19 dex so that's ac = 6.

When my paladin hits my ranger, it's [roll] + 1 = [result].

What I expect is that if [result] is equal to 18-6 or larger, then that should be a hit.

... but what I see is that [result] must be 18-5 i.e. 13 or larger to hit.

What's going on?

TJ_Hooker

@Masklin that's because you have to compare your to-hit roll to your base THAC0 minus enemy AC. This is because the +1 to hit from strength (or any other bonuses) already shows up in the hit roll calculations.

You can either think of to-hit bonuses as being something that increases your attack roll, or you can think of it as something that decreases your THAC0 (both are equivalent). In your calculations, you were doing both, so you were effectively counting the bonus twice.

MunchkinXQ

That's right. If you get a modifier for good, you could either add the modifier to your hit die result or subtract it from THAC0.

I think 2e is pretty comprehensive. Your goal is just THAC0-AC, plussing modifiers.

Masklin

So a fighter with a base thac0 of 15, pounding away at someone with ac 5, will have to roll...

[roll] + [various modifiers] + 5 > 15 ?

TJ_Hooker

Masklin said:

So a fighter with a base thac0 of 15, pounding away at someone with ac 5, will have to roll...

[roll] + [various modifiers] + 5 > 15 ?

Yup, except I believe it's greater than or equal to, not just greater than.

atcDave

Masklin said:

So a fighter with a base thac0 of 15, pounding away at someone with ac 5, will have to roll...

[roll] + [various modifiers] + 5 > 15 ?

Not quite. Take the 15 Thaco, subtract the target's armor class (5), and get 10. THAT's what you need to roll. If you have a +2 to hit, it is added to the roll, so actually an 8 (+2) would be a hit in that case.

TJ_Hooker

@atcDave subtracting the enemies' AC from your base THAC0 is equivalent to adding their AC to your attack roll.

atcDave

TJ_Hooker said:

@atcDave subtracting the enemies' AC from your base THAC0 is equivalent to adding their AC to your attack roll.

Yes it is. We said mathematically the same thing at about the same time.