Try dual-classing all NPCs for whom it is possible in the same game (spoilers)
Lemernis
Member, Moderator Posts: 4,318
It's interesting to note that there are enough tomes available to dual all of the dual-classable NPCs in the game. Hence the "NPC Dual-class challenge" wherein you dual-class all of your NPCs. The roster includes:
Imoen - no tome needed to dual to Mage
Shar-Teel - no tome needed to dual to Thief
Xzar - 1 Wis tome to dual to Cleric; or the Dex tome to dual to Thief
Dynaheir - 2 Wis tomes to dual to Cleric
Branwen - Dex tome to dual to Thief
Safana - Int tome to dual to Mage
For reference sake here are the tome locations.
Some rules of thumb:
- Obviously you can't take them all, just five among the six.
- You can't dual Branwen and Safana until you reach BG city. Ditto for Xzar if he's dualing to Thief. (Int and Dex tomes are in the big city.)
- If Xzar is dualing to Cleric and he and Dynaheir are both included in the party, then Dyna isn't able to dual until you return to Candlekeep, which is very late in the game.
- You can also dual Xzar to Thief with the Dex tome. Then you're not taking Branwen (as there is only one Dex tome). In this case you're dualing Xzar in Chapter 5, and dualing him to Thief. This frees up 2 Wis tomes for Dynaheir to dual to Cleric before entering BG city.
This game would definitely be a challenge. There's a bit of a tank deficit. Not that you can't beat the game without tanks. Anyway, you'd probably want the PC to have the ability to tank, and perhaps also to heal. In BG:EE you're limited in the number of creatures you can summon, so magic is going to play a big role. And of course, depending on when you dual the characters they're climbing through low levels of their new class with original class deactivated.
Who would you assemble? When would you dual them? Would your PC also dual-class? Which classes for the PC? Inquiring minds want to know.
Imoen - no tome needed to dual to Mage
Shar-Teel - no tome needed to dual to Thief
Xzar - 1 Wis tome to dual to Cleric; or the Dex tome to dual to Thief
Dynaheir - 2 Wis tomes to dual to Cleric
Branwen - Dex tome to dual to Thief
Safana - Int tome to dual to Mage
For reference sake here are the tome locations.
Some rules of thumb:
- Obviously you can't take them all, just five among the six.
- You can't dual Branwen and Safana until you reach BG city. Ditto for Xzar if he's dualing to Thief. (Int and Dex tomes are in the big city.)
- If Xzar is dualing to Cleric and he and Dynaheir are both included in the party, then Dyna isn't able to dual until you return to Candlekeep, which is very late in the game.
- You can also dual Xzar to Thief with the Dex tome. Then you're not taking Branwen (as there is only one Dex tome). In this case you're dualing Xzar in Chapter 5, and dualing him to Thief. This frees up 2 Wis tomes for Dynaheir to dual to Cleric before entering BG city.
This game would definitely be a challenge. There's a bit of a tank deficit. Not that you can't beat the game without tanks. Anyway, you'd probably want the PC to have the ability to tank, and perhaps also to heal. In BG:EE you're limited in the number of creatures you can summon, so magic is going to play a big role. And of course, depending on when you dual the characters they're climbing through low levels of their new class with original class deactivated.
Who would you assemble? When would you dual them? Would your PC also dual-class? Which classes for the PC? Inquiring minds want to know.
Post edited by Lemernis on
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I have no patience (or skill) for doing this, but it's a very interesting idea. I would probably go:
PC: Cleric dual to Fighter (probably)
Imoen: Dual to Mage
Shar-Teel: Dual to Thief
Xzar: Dual to Cleric
Safana: Dual to Mage
Branwen: Dual to Thief
I guess. Could use Shar-Teel as Backstabber and Branwen as ranged (though her con is way better). Just... Gonna be a rough time for everyone lol Could Xzar wear the Elven Chain while he's a Cleric?
@rdarken: he should be able to, but there's also robe of the evil archmagi with the same AC.
This game would just be BG:EE. I would not be planning for the entire saga.
Here's how I'd do it:
Imoen I think I would dual to Mage right away. I'll very soon have Shar-Teels's Thief skills--so I'd want Immy's Mage skills more. I would pour all of her skill points into one Thief skill such as Find Traps and be done with Thief at level 3. She'd then have 85 skill points in finding and removing traps, which I believe is sufficient for Durlag's. Although I'm not sure if I would want to take on Durlag's in a game such as this. (Just for the heck of it, I might consider putting those 50 skill points also into Pick Pockets. She'd then have 75 points in pickpocketing.)
Xzar duals to Cleric at Necomancer 5. I'd get the Wis tome on the upper floor of Durlag's for him after completing the Nashkel mines. If the PC is Good or Neutral I'd let Monty tag along until FAI and then ditch him on one of the upper floors. If Evil, some other way. (I'd be heading to the bassilisk area soon anyway.)
Shar-Teel duals to Thief at Fighter 3. I believe she joins at level 2 to begin with. So she can be dualed very quickly. She'd dual-wield Varscona and the Dagger of Venom. (Edit: It goes without saying she'll be backstabbing at every opportunity!)
A Cleric is needed. And Cleric/Thief is actually a great class combo. So I would add Branwen. Branwen can't be dualed to Thief until Chapter 5. She'd probably be around level 5 or 6 then. But honestly, I'd be content to dual her even just at level 4, as she'd then have plenty of good level 1 and 2 buffing spells for backstabs. Plus she'd provide some decent healing. If I'm near to a level-up to level 5 or 6, okay, I'd dual after that. But otherwise I'd just dual her once I can get the tome. I think I might have her wield the Club +2.
For the final slot I'd add Safana. I'd dual her to Mage right away once I arrived at BG city. Fortunately, she comes with 50 points already in Pick Locks. I'd distribute skill points between lockpicking and stealth. I wouldn't waste any time in dualing her. She'd backstab with Aule's Staff +3. She'd Cast Strength on herself plus other mage buffs. I'd see if I could also have her cast spells in the thick of melee. She might have to retreat to cast spells more safely after her backstabs.
As for the PC, to my mind it makes sense to dual a Cleric to Fighter. I think I'd choose Priest of Helm, although I admit that's mainly because I have never tried it. Anyway, 'Seeking Sword' and True Seeing sounds pretty good. The main thing I would care about here is having level 1 and 2 Cleric spells for buffing, plus some additional healing. This character is mainly a melee fighter. So I would dual-class at Priest of Helm level 4. I might have him dual-wield (mastery) maces (++) and flails/morning stars (++). Or maybe grandmastery in one of those weapons with two pips in Sword and Shield.
The PC and Xzar might use Sanctuary alongside the party's backstabbing thieves. One of them each facing enemies who are being backstabbed.
So that's
PC - Priest of Helm 4/Fighter
Imoen - Thief 3/Mage (Thief concentration in Find Traps)
Shar-Teel - Fighter 3/Thief
Xzar - Necromancer 5/Cleric
Branwen - Cleric 5 or 6/Thief
Safana - Thief 5 or 6/Mage
as far as other choices... let Shar-Teel backstab. her weapon proficiencies, avesome-ish thac0, and general badassery means she's the best NPC in the game at popping internal organs.
Safana already has both pick locks and traps skill (with a bit of move silently thrown in), so you can easily dualclass Imoen at 2, Safana alone can handle everything with ease.
For the PC I mainly need a tank. Here the character's Fighter skills are the most important to me by far. However the character has to dual, so another class has to be selected as well. So I wasn't viewing the class other than Fighter as terribly important. The party is already Thief-heavy. And dualing early from Mage doesn't seem to give me a lot (several decent buffs plus Blind and Glitterdust, I guess)... But anyway, Cleric seemed the obvious choice.
But even with Cleric I'm pretty well set up with this party. For healing I already have Xzar and Branwen. Xzar will get the higher level priest spells, and Branwen has cleric spells up to level 3. The PC will also have 2 additional Bhaalspawn healing spells.
For the PC, if 'Seeking Sword' ain't so hot then I guess Cleric of Helm might not be the best choice... But more broadly, re: clerics, all the specialty priests have bonus spells or abilities of some sort in addition to the full complement of cleric skills. So I figured why not pick one of them rather than vanilla? Perhaps a Priest of Lathander's 'Lathander's Boon' is more useful? (Cleric of Talos looks neat but regularly using lighting requires a very careful approach to avoid friendly fire.)
As you suggest, a Berserker 3/Cleric will obviously perform great and will advance in cleric spells. I had thought about that as well. Berserker Rage + Weapons Mastery and dual wielding maces + advance with Cleric spells is pretty awesome. On the other hand, a Priest of Lathander 4/Fighter has Lathander's Boon + level 1 and 2 cleric spells (mainly interested in buffs here) + Fighter's advancement in THACO and weapons profs. You can actually reach Fighter 8 after dualing from Cleric 4. Again, it's not a choice I would typically make, but rather an approach given the dynamics of this particular party and tactical challenge. Really, either of these choices is going to work out fine. It's just a matter of taste.
Shar-Teel I would have backstabbing for sure! Indeed, I would typically launch battles with backstabs by three of the party's thieves: Shar-Teel, Branwen, and Safana. (Imoen I think I would keep back to cast spells.) And I would also try having Xzar and the PC join those three backstabbing Thieves, themselves buffed and hidden in Sanctuary, to help launch the sneak attack. The clerics won't get the backstab modifier of course. But they will be right up on the enemy, hitting them from the front as they're getting backstabbed by the Thieves.
I chose the same party. Re: ability boosting gear, as for who to give the gauntlets of Dex and Str... And interestingly, everyone has at least 16 Dex or higher, btw... but I guess I would give the Dex bracers to Xzar and the Str gauntlets to Branwen.
If you talk to Dorn in the FAI, then travel to Nashkel Mines you get the encounter where the elven chainmail drops (well, is suppose to drop) this can all happen without Dorn joining the party.
@rdarken
I wouldn't use the elven chainmail on Xzar. Give him normal plate mail or whatever while he is a cleric before he gets his mage levels back, and once he has his mage levels back use the robe of the evil arch magi. It has the same AC as the elven chainmail but with other bonuses.
Berserker 3/Cleric 8
Two-Weapon Style +++
Mace ++++
AC -6
attacks per round 2.5
THACO main 6 off-hand 9
Berserker Rage: The enraged state lasts for 60 seconds. While enraged, a Berseker gains a bonus of +2 to his attack and damage rolls as well as to his Armor Class, and becomes immune to charm, confusion, fear, feeblemind, hold, imprisonment, level drain, maze, stun and sleep. He also gains 15 hit points which are temporary and are taken away at the end of his berserk spree, possibly killing the Berserker.
cleric spells level 1- 4
Buffs: Armor of Faith, Bless, Protection from Evil, Aid, Barkskin, Chant, DUHM, Defensive Harmony, Death Ward, Holy Power, Protection from Evil 10' Radius
Priest of Lathander 4/Fighter 8
Two-Weapon Style +++
Mace ++
Flail ++
AC -6
attacks per round 3
THACO main 5 off-hand 7
Boon of Lathander: This spell lasts for 6 seconds per level of the caster. It gives the caster a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls, a +1 bonus to all saving throws and 1 extra attack per round. It also protects the recipient from level drain.
Hold Undead
cleric spells level 1-2
Buffs: Armor of Faith, Bless, Protection from Evil, Aid, Barkskin, Chant, DUHM
If your issue is raw damage, dualing Safana and Imoen early makes no sense at all. Take them to level 5/6 for extra thac0 and hitpoints so they can contribute better in that sense. You will lose no endgame power and gain more raw phsyical power.
Cleric=> thief is probably the least useful combo available, so I'd drop Branwen- Shar-teel is all the thief you need really. Xzar is back rank caster, Shar-teel and PC tank, Imoen, Dynaheir and Safana are archers/ spell casters/ can tank a little in emergency. Its actually a decent party, its just them many periods of dual classing are annoying.
(Note: I installed the XP cap remover but no one exceeded the XP cap limit.)
Berserker 3/Cleric 8
He got his Berserker skills back in two shakes.
Imoen: Thief 2/Mage 9
- no tome required
Xzar: Necromancer 4/Cleric 8
- Wis tome on Durlag's 3rd floor of tower
Shar-Teel: Fighter 3/Thief 9
- no tome required
Branwen: Cleric 5/Thief 9
- Dex tome at Black Lily's, Thieve's Guild in BG city
Safana: Thief 5/Mage 9
- Int tome in Ragefast's Tower, BG city
Of course Imoen and Xzar join in the first map outise of Candlekeep. Sadly (although conveniently) Montaron died (oh snap) in the encounter with the ogre that has the genderbending belt. The trio went directly to FAI and politely turned down Khalid and Jaheira's offer to join them. It was clear that they needed to head to Nashkel however. (Xzar even complained about not getting there soon enough during the Bassilus quest.)
I completed the Bassilus quest right away with the PC, Imoen, and Xzar.
Imoen dualed on the way down to Nashkel, as the party investigated what sounded like the noisy of a band of bandit hobgoblins off the road (and found some nifty boots for Imoen).
The party un-petrified Branwen at the Nashkel carnival. The four adventurers then proceeded directly to the Nashkel mines. The PC dualed during the mines quest.
After the Nashkel mines the party explored a bit to the east of the Song of the Morning and found a quick and ready blade in Shar-Teel to join them in their adventuring. Shar-Teel is right there on the bassilisk map, so I went ahead and cleared the area then to get the early bird dualers (PC, Imoen, and Shar-Teel ) their original class skills back a bit quicker. And indeed, both the PC and Imoen got their original class skills restored before the map was done.
Next I went to get the Wisdom tome in Durlag's required for Xzar to dual to Cleric. All I did was go right for the tome (no other excursions in the tower). At this point I was trying to avoid XP getting to high for Branwen.
Xzar was already at level four when I got the party to Durlag's which is when I wanted to dual him. So he dualed then.
Next I went to get Safana. She joined at level 4. Branwen was also then at level 4. And my plan was to dual them both at level 5. So I made a beeline with the plotline to get to BG city, as I needed the tomes there to dual Branwen and Safana.
By the time I reached Cloakwood Shar-Teel had regained her original class skills.
I got to BG city with Branwen and Safana both at level 5 (although nearing level 6) and obtained their tomes immediately in order to dual them both. I did no questing in the city at that time. I actually burgled Ragefast's tower to get the Int tome out of concern that XP from Ragefast's quest could end up have been wasted for Branwen and/or Safana.
But now the pressure was off since everyone was dualed when I wanted. And only Safana and Branwen had yet to regain their original class skills.
I cleared all the wilderness maps then did Durlag's. It was during the Durlag's crawl that both Branwen and Safana regained their original class skills.
Next I did Ice Island. Then completed the BG city quests (or quite a number of them anyway). Next the Isle of Balduran. Then I completed the plot.
So it was an offbeat, but very fun and interesting, game. Just a few observations about the NPCs dualed as such:
Imoen: I didn't have Xzar as full mage for long (and he didn't have higher than level 2 Necomancer spells after he got his mage spells back), so needed to dual Immy to mage right away. I put all of her skill points into pickpocketing because this party is Thief heavy. (I know this sound like heresy to some, but I really don't care much for using her as a mage. But that's just me I guess.)
Xzar: Xzar rocks as a Necromancer/Cleric. I really enjoyed this. I had him using a morning star and shield. I didn't armor him in order to have him be able to cast mage spells in combat. However I had him mostly using cleric spells for the better part of the game, so in hindsight I probably could have put him in full plate. The Dex gauntlets help him quite a bit as a meleer. Later I put the Strength gloves on him.
Branwen: Branwen surprised me by becoming the most useful party member by far! I had her backstabbing with the stave (Aule's Staff +3). She was also the Traps finder/remover. I split her Thief skill points between Traps and stealth. She did a lot of backstabbing with Shar-Teel; and toward the end of the game in a trio with Safana as well.
Shar-Teel: Much has already been said about dualing Shar-Teel to Thief at Fighter 3. I gave her Dagger +++, Long Sword ++, Two Weapon Style ++. Dagger of Venom and Varscona (mostly). She's great as a Fighter/Thief, that's about it. I put her points into stealth and setting traps. I actually did have her lay traps now and then, just for kicks.
Safana: Safana as a Mage/Thief I would like to try again, because I never quite got to using her as I wanted. She never found that groove. Which was to backstab then immediately cast spells. Instead I often had her in the back row with Imoen casting disabling spells. However she was the lock-picker, so her Thief skills were definitely put to use. (I split her points between locks and stealth.) But by the end of the game she was routinely joining Shar-Teel and Branwen in simultaneous single target backstabs, which was insta-death for most opponents.
One common strategy I used with this bunch was to place the PC and Xzar Sanctuaried directly in front of opponents, and thieves behind them. Imoen (and often Safana) to the rear casting disabling spells. The Clerics used Command and Hold a lot.