Oh yeah. Even a buckler with +1 APR would make the top tier. Actually, that would be a pretty killer item (a shield of some variety with +X APR, either 1 or 1/2), and I'd love to see it included in BG2:EE or some future project and/or Black Pits-esque DLC.
I can personally attest to the value of sword and shield style for a cleric. I'm running a cleric for my current playthrough of the game, and it works so well that he serves the role of tank. Minsc has more HP, but I get hurt so little for the most part that it doesn't matter.
It is kinda helpful for me... I have Viconia in my party and since her strength is measely 10 (well, actually it's average) she can't use more than small shield and one point in sword-and-shield style provides -2 AC bonus to missiles which kinda offsets missile AC penalties of small shield +1.
Oddly, I find that at the very high end in ToB, the shield becomes more useful than dual wielding.
By that time you can get some pretty good shields (+4 shields which mean -5 AC) which can actually have a significant impact on how much you get hit. And for any tough fight your your melee characters will be spamming whirlwind attack which is 10 attacks/round regardless of whether you are dual wielding or not.
+1 I don't get all that hype off dual-wielding neither. Any Fighter-based class without GM-fix and imp haste (or haste with GM-fix) is hard-capped nonetheless, so there is no need to wield a 2nd weapon, while a shield offers you better protection and usually has also some neat side-effects. And a difference of +5 (shield of the order) to an enemies' thac0 is huge, ie Fire Giants in Yaga Shura have a modified -4 Thac0.. (afair)
most of the hype comes from the fact that offhand weapons can easily add 2 extra attacks - one from offhand itself, one from the weapon bonus (Belm, Kundane, Scarlet Ninja-To). with a properly built character, now you have 5 attacks - add imp haste on top of that, and you become a walking blender.
the best you can achieve with sword and board or two handed, even with gm "fix" and proper gauntlets is 3,5 base APR. dual wielders tear these kind of characters into tiny little shreds, though defensively, yes, shield can have a major impact, especially in some areas of ToB, going as far as halving the damage you swallow.
Where does it come from that all styles should be created equal? I think its completely reasonable that some styles would be more effective than others. On occasion, it might be better to switch (like in BG2, when my dual wielding tank switches to the Shield of Balduran to go after beholders); but I have no problem with just saying dual wield is usually better.
I'd say they are fine as is. While Offense is very nice, there is something to say for slightly more defensive play style. With a shield, Jahiera in my party has an AC -7. She rarely gets hit. And soaks up the attention of the combatants while Imoen and Kivan and Kalid pound on them.
And while two weapon fighting is very powerful, archery is even more so in the right hands.
most of the hype comes from the fact that offhand weapons can easily add 2 extra attacks - one from offhand itself, one from the weapon bonus (Belm, Kundane, Scarlet Ninja-To). with a properly built character, now you have 5 attacks - add imp haste on top of that, and you become a walking blender.
the best you can achieve with sword and board or two handed, even with gm "fix" and proper gauntlets is 3,5 base APR. dual wielders tear these kind of characters into tiny little shreds, though defensively, yes, shield can have a major impact, especially in some areas of ToB, going as far as halving the damage you swallow.
8 with a mere 'basic' single weapon, Imp haste & Gauntlets. So am missing 2 attacks..not a huge gamebreaker for me :> With 10 ApR isn't one not even hard-coded to be 1 for the offhand anyway? And +2/3 immunities are not unheard off in ToB...
THat's why I fail to understand, that sacrificing protection for '1' mainhand extra attack is sooooo much important. And yes, I usually play with GM-fix...but I suppose a lot of other do so as well. Have had never trouble beating ToB that way, only while it might take 1-2 rounds longer to beat some specific enemies.
shields are not underpowered...just because you can do more damage with dual wielding doesnt mean you are actually going to hit the person...
DEFENSE wins championships, and when I play with a berserker and use the shield I can virtually avoid being touched in most battles. I take minimal damage and still can destroy everything
most of the hype comes from the fact that offhand weapons can easily add 2 extra attacks - one from offhand itself, one from the weapon bonus (Belm, Kundane, Scarlet Ninja-To). with a properly built character, now you have 5 attacks - add imp haste on top of that, and you become a walking blender.
the best you can achieve with sword and board or two handed, even with gm "fix" and proper gauntlets is 3,5 base APR. dual wielders tear these kind of characters into tiny little shreds, though defensively, yes, shield can have a major impact, especially in some areas of ToB, going as far as halving the damage you swallow.
8 with a mere 'basic' single weapon, Imp haste & Gauntlets. So am missing 2 attacks..not a huge gamebreaker for me :> With 10 ApR isn't one not even hard-coded to be 1 for the offhand anyway? And +2/3 immunities are not unheard off in ToB...
THat's why I fail to understand, that sacrificing protection for '1' mainhand extra attack is sooooo much important. And yes, I usually play with GM-fix...but I suppose a lot of other do so as well. Have had never trouble beating ToB that way, only while it might take 1-2 rounds longer to beat some specific enemies.
8, how? 1 base + 1 from fighter levels + 1 from grandmastery + 1/2 from gauntlets, imp haste doubles, that's 7. am I missing something?
and about sacrificing protection... for most of SoA, there's little to no difference between dual wield vs sword and board - no one will hit you either way, and cutting them into pieces fast as hell doesn't even give them a chance. by ToB, yeah, sometimes it'd be better to wield a shield, but most of the time, I kindly take the "can't be arsed" viewpoint, because I also tend to play FMTs
also, one important thing I forgot in the previous post: Crom Faeyr, in offhand. just... this. hello, 25 str.
yeah, but that was contrary to the ingame/manual descriptions in both BG1/IWD, and... well, OP as hell. so I wouldn't exactly call it a "fix"...
IWD(+addon+luremaster), fresh install - no fixes, no tweaks, only widescreen-mod. Made a fighter and gave him only some XP to get him to lvl13 for every ApR bonus. 5 pips in Longsword...so she is missing only the gauntlets My BG1 ain't working anymore (CD corrupted) so this is the fastest way - IMO in was either a typo in the manual or whatever and am pretty sure you also you'd achieve the same GM. And it was pointless any way cause of the XP cap...
One could argue though, if it was intended in BG2 or not, thanks to the endless supply of +5/6 weapons. But IWD caps somewhere at 30 too...
There is a thread in Featured Request that aims to improve the mechanics of Swords and Shields. If you skim the thread, the op basically proposes a physical damage reduction system for every hit. I proposed a different mechanic of "evasion" by rolling an extra dice.
I got to disagree, Dual wield is excellent but you are vulnerable to arrows.
As stated wearing belt or boots of missile defence are great but you are also taking a spot up that could be for instance boots of cheetah. My Cavalier uses Shield and Flails/morningstar. Literately all the enemies I force to attack him and cant penetrate his -6 AC.
Not to mention, having the ability to easily switch to different types of weapons against different monster classes is a huge bonus with weapon proficiencies you lack or creatures invulnerable to your primary weapon.
Statisticly speaking the dual wield might look better but remember that its all based on random die rolls not static attacks.
Also dual-wield is only really an option for those classes that can spend at least 2 pips (**) in it, preferrably 3 pips (***). With specialization (*) only, the THACO penalties, for me, are not compensated by the extra APR.
Dual wield only works wonder in ToB. Regardless whether you put any pips in 2 weapon style, high fighter levels will almost guarantee you to hit your enemies since their AC dont improve much from SoA. In addition, ToB enemies have a big improvement in Thaco. To compete, Swords and Shields needs improvement than just -4 missile AC bonus.
For other classes, thief/bard/cleric can overcome the terrible thaco penalty from drinking potions of power/heroism/potions of extra strenghs. Cleric benefits additionally by equipping the Crom Faer Hammer in the offhand.
@bbear: agree with all of this. But taking the entire saga into consideration, ToB is only a small part of the adventures of your character (granted, the toughest) and for me at least, the one I least play due my PC's getting killed/abandonned before I even reach there... in other words I never, ever, create a PC having ToB in mind.
People underestimate the damage reduction from a good shield combined with good armor. Against regular opponents it can make the difference between getting hit 25% of the time and getting hit 5% of the time. Thats 80% damage reduction right there!
Even against the ToB fire giants with their -4 thaco, without a shield you'll probably only be around -8 AC at best. That means getting hit 85% of the time. Add a +4 shield into the mix and you only get hit 60% of the time. Thats a 30% damage reduction right there - better than Defender of Easthaven in fact (although that does combine nicely with hardiness).
If you really push your AC to the max (can only really be done on one character however), throw in defensive harmony and DUHM (25 dex) you can push your AC to around -20. At that point even the ToB fire giants lose most of their sting, hitting only 25% of the time.
As for the lack of attacks, greater whirlwind attack takes care of all those problems. And for high level fighter types theres really not a lot else worth getting because other classes only have a couple of abilities worth having.
@valky: I know it works that way in IWD (not sure about BG1), found it OP as hell there too not sure if intended, iirc even in the game itself it says only +1 APR. though one could say it's to compensate for ranger's "fake dual wielding" in IWD, because otherwise they could casually outdamage a big bad fighter. (they still can)
@DinsdalePiranha Am not sure either, in HoF mode it's pretty much needed or you are running a decoy built and let your casters or whackmasters do the rest. But it worked better that way in IWD2 thanks to certain items ^^ There even a dual-wielding built for 'support' was very viable if you get by any chance that nasty bastard sword or 2-handed for the axe + several Tymoras Loop.
Any way... One of the advantages though in BG2 and dual-wielding are those cheat-fake protections of certain boss-enemies. That I have to admit They were given items to simulate stone or ironskins, oddly breach doesn't work on them. Else most enemies don't have any more than 100HP - so they die fast either way. Dragons usually have 180-245HP (that is a joke to begin with) but are protected by non-dispelable combat protections. And with current SCSII I do see a difference in having a shield or not even in SoA (Keldorn with 2-handed sword). I think in vanilla only with barely any mods (maybe only fixpack) it doesn't really matter. Still Fire Giants do hit very hard... But it often seems that dual-wielding is the only way to go and that's not true, it does make a difference in taking down something but you sacrifice quite some protection. And I would never let a Cleric (or in my case Fighter->cleric) run dual-wielding...that's so stupid. Having your spells fizzle is not funny and they don't even need Crom Feayr, cause in ToB you can roughly spam DuhM.
That said, for vanilla I tend to agree with dual-wielding and used it myself some time ago, for anything that changes the AI/tactics/behavior of enemies (including or specially caster..so they buff/debuff and so on) shields become way more viable, even with "only" +5 more armor. My currently most 'abused' item is the shield of harmony *d00h*
Comments
the best you can achieve with sword and board or two handed, even with gm "fix" and proper gauntlets is 3,5 base APR. dual wielders tear these kind of characters into tiny little shreds, though defensively, yes, shield can have a major impact, especially in some areas of ToB, going as far as halving the damage you swallow.
If anything, characters in game are over powered.
And while two weapon fighting is very powerful, archery is even more so in the right hands.
With 10 ApR isn't one not even hard-coded to be 1 for the offhand anyway? And +2/3 immunities are not unheard off in ToB...
THat's why I fail to understand, that sacrificing protection for '1' mainhand extra attack is sooooo much important. And yes, I usually play with GM-fix...but I suppose a lot of other do so as well.
Have had never trouble beating ToB that way, only while it might take 1-2 rounds longer to beat some specific enemies.
DEFENSE wins championships, and when I play with a berserker and use the shield I can virtually avoid being touched in most battles. I take minimal damage and still can destroy everything
and about sacrificing protection... for most of SoA, there's little to no difference between dual wield vs sword and board - no one will hit you either way, and cutting them into pieces fast as hell doesn't even give them a chance. by ToB, yeah, sometimes it'd be better to wield a shield, but most of the time, I kindly take the "can't be arsed" viewpoint, because I also tend to play FMTs
also, one important thing I forgot in the previous post: Crom Faeyr, in offhand. just... this. hello, 25 str.
-GM-fix adds 1.5 AR (else 0.5)
-Gauntlets adds another 0.5
So either 6 without GM-fix or 8....
edit: am talking only about ToB..SoA can be beaten with a lvl 7 party/solo. (without any 'AI' mods though ^^)
edit/edit: don't mind the crossover GM stuff from BGEE, real BG1 or IWD had 5/2 with their 5th pip. And that's exactly what the fix does.
(I saw it in http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/5412/there-is-an-excellent-online-baldurs-gate-game-out-there/p1 (BG:Online) and read that the feats are actually direct from D&D)
It would be neat if BG:Enhanced could also implement those. SHIELD BASH!!
My BG1 ain't working anymore (CD corrupted) so this is the fastest way - IMO in was either a typo in the manual or whatever and am pretty sure you also you'd achieve the same GM. And it was pointless any way cause of the XP cap...
One could argue though, if it was intended in BG2 or not, thanks to the endless supply of +5/6 weapons. But IWD caps somewhere at 30 too...
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/2355/making-sword-and-shield-style-more-useful#latest
As stated wearing belt or boots of missile defence are great but you are also taking a spot up that could be for instance boots of cheetah. My Cavalier uses Shield and Flails/morningstar. Literately all the enemies I force to attack him and cant penetrate his -6 AC.
Not to mention, having the ability to easily switch to different types of weapons against different monster classes is a huge bonus with weapon proficiencies you lack or creatures invulnerable to your primary weapon.
Statisticly speaking the dual wield might look better but remember that its all based on random die rolls not static attacks.
For other classes, thief/bard/cleric can overcome the terrible thaco penalty from drinking potions of power/heroism/potions of extra strenghs. Cleric benefits additionally by equipping the Crom Faer Hammer in the offhand.
Even against the ToB fire giants with their -4 thaco, without a shield you'll probably only be around -8 AC at best. That means getting hit 85% of the time. Add a +4 shield into the mix and you only get hit 60% of the time. Thats a 30% damage reduction right there - better than Defender of Easthaven in fact (although that does combine nicely with hardiness).
If you really push your AC to the max (can only really be done on one character however), throw in defensive harmony and DUHM (25 dex) you can push your AC to around -20. At that point even the ToB fire giants lose most of their sting, hitting only 25% of the time.
As for the lack of attacks, greater whirlwind attack takes care of all those problems. And for high level fighter types theres really not a lot else worth getting because other classes only have a couple of abilities worth having.
though one could say it's to compensate for ranger's "fake dual wielding" in IWD, because otherwise they could casually outdamage a big bad fighter. (they still can)
Am not sure either, in HoF mode it's pretty much needed or you are running a decoy built and let your casters or whackmasters do the rest. But it worked better that way in IWD2 thanks to certain items ^^ There even a dual-wielding built for 'support' was very viable if you get by any chance that nasty bastard sword or 2-handed for the axe + several Tymoras Loop.
Any way...
One of the advantages though in BG2 and dual-wielding are those cheat-fake protections of certain boss-enemies. That I have to admit
And with current SCSII I do see a difference in having a shield or not even in SoA (Keldorn with 2-handed sword). I think in vanilla only with barely any mods (maybe only fixpack) it doesn't really matter. Still Fire Giants do hit very hard...
But it often seems that dual-wielding is the only way to go and that's not true, it does make a difference in taking down something but you sacrifice quite some protection. And I would never let a Cleric (or in my case Fighter->cleric) run dual-wielding...that's so stupid. Having your spells fizzle is not funny and they don't even need Crom Feayr, cause in ToB you can roughly spam DuhM.
That said, for vanilla I tend to agree with dual-wielding and used it myself some time ago, for anything that changes the AI/tactics/behavior of enemies (including or specially caster..so they buff/debuff and so on) shields become way more viable, even with "only" +5 more armor. My currently most 'abused' item is the shield of harmony *d00h*