Skip to content

Straight Bard or Kit?

Planning to play a bard during my second run through. New class and planning to have each npc join for a bit and complete their quests. Looking at the Bard not sure any of the kits will make a big difference. Not going to dual wield so Blade is out. Skald and Jester songs sound interesting, but not sure how much they will contribute. Any thoughts are appreciated.
«1

Comments

  • MurrayConfederacyMurrayConfederacy Member Posts: 188
    edited January 2013
    The general consensus is that the best bard classes go:

    1. Blade
    2. Skald
    3. Bard
    4. Jester

    However Blade plays VERY differently to the other kits, so if you were after bards then you should avoid the blade.

    Also, the Jester is actually good in BGEE, where saves are lower (or higher, whichever means worse) than in BG2.

    Skald is probably the best but becomes damned redundant in ToB thanks to a rather poor decision involving high level abilities (it is a bard song that any of the bard kits can gets and is better than the skalds).

    Bard is good due to their pickpocket and lore (which the Jester shares). In vanilla BGEE I don't think that the bard song actually goes up with levels, however I may be wrong on that so be careful there. Because of this it would be very hard for me to recommend using the pure class bard.
  • RhaegarRhaegar Member Posts: 25
    Straight bard isn't worth it, all the kits give a huge benefit with minimal downsides.

    Just decide which aspect you like most out of the three kits and pick one.
  • XavioriaXavioria Member Posts: 874
    The only thing that is not accented throughout the kits is a spellcaster friendly type bard... they really need to remedy that.

    I played a Skald, they're decent, and pretty good in BG:EE. Definitely worth trying. The only issue that I forsee with a Skald is their weak THAC0 progression... *sigh*
  • RhaegarRhaegar Member Posts: 25
    Yeah a more caster based bard would be nice, but aside from letting them get 7th or 8th level spells there's not a lot they could do.

    I think the current kits are pretty nice and they did a better job with the bard than most other classes in that regard
  • The user and all related content has been deleted.
  • Oxford_GuyOxford_Guy Member Posts: 3,729
    edited January 2013

    The general consensus is that the best bard classes go:

    1. Blade
    2. Skald
    3. Bard
    4. Jester

    However Blade plays VERY differently to the other kits, so if you were after bards then you should avoid the blade.

    Also, the Jester is actually good in BGEE, where saves are lower (or higher, whichever means worse) than in BG2.

    Skald is probably the best but becomes damned redundant in ToB thanks to a rather poor decision involving high level abilities (it is a bard song that any of the bard kits can gets and is better than the skalds).

    True, but not until 3 million XP (between Levels 23-24), which is a *long* way off, and before that Skald song is arguably the best song and gets even better at levels 15 and 20.
    In fact a Skald might even consider taking another HLA first, such as UAI ( Use Any Item), as Level 20 Skald song is still pretty great.

    Even after the HLA song a Skald is still better than a non-kit Bard or Jester as still gets his/her innate +1 To Hit *and* +1 damage to *all* attacks (including ranged). A Skald also still gets the full lore benefit, the only thing you lose out on is pickpockets.

    BTW it's perfectly possible to "song twist" as a Skald (or with any Bard song, though not sure this would work for the Jester's song, as this works a little differently) i.e. after you've been singing for a while and you can see on your characters portraits that the Bard song effect is "up", as soon as possible after the round has started you can get some ranged attacks in (actually you can do melee too, but it's harder to manage) or cast a quick spell and then resume singing before the end of the round, without the song effect dropping (i.e. it "lingers" a little) *and* your own attacks benefit from the song. For a Skald this means +3 To Hit *and* +3 damage ( (+1 for Skald innate, +2 for Skald Song) for each attack, so even with darts (which have 3 APR) you could potentially do 4-6 damagewith each dart or 12-18, if all three hit. With the improved Skald Song at Level 15 this would become 6-8 damage with each dart or 18-24 if all hit, more with magic darts. Using a bow when hasted would also do serious damage.

    It's also worth pointing out that, as well as yourself and your party NPCs, your Familiar also benefits from Skald song ( and, for what it's worth, the non-kit Bard song), the -2 AC bonus from Skald song can help with their survival *and* for the Pseudo Dragon at least (the Neutral Good familiar) the to hit and damage bonuses actually makes them half decent in melee. I think Skald song also improves the effectiveness of summoned creatures and other temporary NPCs.


    Bard is good due to their pickpocket and lore (which the Jester shares). In vanilla BGEE I don't think that the bard song actually goes up with levels, however I may be wrong on that so be careful there. Because of this it would be very hard for me to recommend using the pure class bard.

    Non-kit Bard song works like this AFAIK:

    Lvl 1: +2 morale per round (so helps to restore morale lost through fear)
    Lvl 15: +1 Luck, +2 Morale per round
    lvl 21: +2 Luck, immunity to fear and morale break.

    Luck gives: +x hit/damage/saving throws/morale

    So the non- kit Bard song is pretty poor until level 15 and not great even then.

    BTW "Friends" is a great spell for a Bard, increases your Cha to at least 21 (adds +6 Charisma, Bard minimum Cha is 15), which gives the max shop discount possible (prices are 75% of normal).

    There have also been some useful recent threads about Bards in the General forum, though these contain some spoilers...


  • Oxford_GuyOxford_Guy Member Posts: 3,729
    edited January 2013
    Xavioria said:

    The only thing that is not accented throughout the kits is a spellcaster friendly type bard... they really need to remedy that.

    I played a Skald, they're decent, and pretty good in BG:EE. Definitely worth trying. The only issue that I forsee with a Skald is their weak THAC0 progression... *sigh*

    Yes, but their bonuses from Skald song (if it can be maintained) which becomes +4/+4/-4 at level 15, and their innate +1 THACO (and damage) help a little with that, and if you can manage to get 18 starting strength, you can get this to 19 with a tome, which gives +3 THAC0 (and +7 damage...). Also, same for Dex, if start with 18 Dex, can get 19 Dex with a tome, which helps with ranged attacks to hit (from +2 to +3).

    There are also gauntlets in-game that can help with THAC0 and you should also be feeding your Skald potions to buff him/her often (though Bards can't use the fighter-specific ones until UAI).
    Post edited by Oxford_Guy on
  • Oxford_GuyOxford_Guy Member Posts: 3,729
    Also as a Bard, it's worth using wands. amulets etc. alot, you can sell these when they get down to one charge and re-purchase and they'll be recharged, as a Bard you can do this relatively cheaply, due to be able to have high Charisma (high base + Friends), unless your reputation sucks...
  • OgaburanOgaburan Member Posts: 83

    Also as a Bard, it's worth using wands. amulets etc. alot, you can sell these when they get down to one charge and re-purchase and they'll be recharged, as a Bard you can do this relatively cheaply, due to be able to have high Charisma (high base + Friends), unless your reputation sucks...

    That is cheating!
    lol...

    Also, dont underestimate the jester... he is quite the powerhouse (as far as bards go) in BG1.
    But i think this class to be too silly... with a kind of joxer-the-mighty stigmata.
    But if that's your cup of tea...

    If you dont want to be a dual-wielding guy then Skald is probably what you are looking for.
    Who needs defense when you have MEAD!

  • Oxford_GuyOxford_Guy Member Posts: 3,729
    Ogaburan said:

    Also as a Bard, it's worth using wands. amulets etc. alot, you can sell these when they get down to one charge and re-purchase and they'll be recharged, as a Bard you can do this relatively cheaply, due to be able to have high Charisma (high base + Friends), unless your reputation sucks...

    That is cheating!
    Why? The repurchase price will still be alot more than the sale price, this tactic seems perfectly legit to me, you're paying for the recharge cost

  • The_New_RomanceThe_New_Romance Member Posts: 839
    If you don't want to dual-wield and/or be a Blade, then go Skald. The downsides to vanilla Bard are negligible. I've played a pure Bard in BG vanilla, and it wasn't as much fun as with one of the kits (in BG2, in my case - that all was before BG:EE).
  • Oxford_GuyOxford_Guy Member Posts: 3,729
    edited January 2013

    Ogaburan said:

    Also as a Bard, it's worth using wands. amulets etc. alot, you can sell these when they get down to one charge and re-purchase and they'll be recharged, as a Bard you can do this relatively cheaply, due to be able to have high Charisma (high base + Friends), unless your reputation sucks...

    That is cheating!
    Why? The repurchase price will still be alot more than the sale price, this tactic seems perfectly legit to me, you're paying for the recharge cost

    Seriously, does anyone really consider this "cheating", and if so, why? I do try to only do this at places selling magic items, like High Hedge and Sourcerous Sundries, where it's feasible RP-wise that the store *could* recharge such an item.

  • OgaburanOgaburan Member Posts: 83



    Seriously, does anyone really consider this "cheating", and if so, why? I do try to only do this at places selling magic items, like High Hedge and Sourcerous Sundries, where it's feasible RP-wise that the store *could* recharge such an item.

    That i'll accept...lol.

    You answer your own questions as to why (at least i) view it as "cheesing" and dont do it. You cant really "cheat" in this game, and the only one you do "cheat" is yourself. Since "cheating" makes you have more fun with your game... kudos to you.

    I for example, delete spells i dont mind risking failing to recopy to my spellbook.
    My friends view this as "a cynical exploit of game mechanics" while i view it as proper PR! As the mages practice writing spells into his spell-book...

    To each his own, in other words.

  • Oxford_GuyOxford_Guy Member Posts: 3,729
    Ogaburan said:



    Seriously, does anyone really consider this "cheating", and if so, why? I do try to only do this at places selling magic items, like High Hedge and Sourcerous Sundries, where it's feasible RP-wise that the store *could* recharge such an item.

    That i'll accept...lol.

    You answer your own questions as to why (at least i) view it as "cheesing" and dont do it. You cant really "cheat" in this game, and the only one you do "cheat" is yourself. Since "cheating" makes you have more fun with your game... kudos to you.
    Well, I prefer to play a "straight" game e.g. accepting all HP rolls on level up, even "ones", not reloading after NPC death (but I do resurrect them), accepting scroll scribing failures etc., and try to avoid excessive "cheese", but I always thought wand recharging was "legit", akin to buying more magic ammo, though I can see from an RP point of view this could be seen as odd if done in a non-magical store in an Inn or somewhere similar.
    Ogaburan said:


    I for example, delete spells i dont mind risking failing to recopy to my spellbook.
    My friends view this as "a cynical exploit of game mechanics" while i view it as proper PR! As the mages practice writing spells into his spell-book

    Why do you do this, to get more XP?
  • OgaburanOgaburan Member Posts: 83
    @Oxford_guy yes, im an xp whore.
    "every bit helps!"... lol.

    Funny, as i dont actually farm encounters...

    On a more serious note, i cant really explain myself... its just something that is always a part of my gameplay when i am/have mages. Just seems to me a logical thing to do as a mage, it adds to my immersion i guess.

    Enough people called me mad for me to understand its an odd quirk... lol
  • Oxford_GuyOxford_Guy Member Posts: 3,729
    Ogaburan said:

    @Oxford_guy yes, im an xp whore.
    "every bit helps!"... lol.

    Funny, as i dont actually farm encounters...

    On a more serious note, i cant really explain myself... its just something that is always a part of my gameplay when i am/have mages. Just seems to me a logical thing to do as a mage, it adds to my immersion i guess.

    Enough people called me mad for me to understand its an odd quirk... lol

    But what if you unscribe a spell, then repeatedly fail to re-scribe it (it can happen!) and use up all the available scrolls at that point in the game? Seems risky, unless a) the spell is not important (e.g. shocking grasp...) and/or b) you really do have loads of copies of the scroll

  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
    edited January 2013
    Well technically...Wands can't be recharged, unless your DM house rules something in, so it is something of an exploit, on the other hand, they tend to cost ridiculous amounts of gold when fully charged (most aren't when first bought or acquired), so it's not like you're getting it for free (unless you abuse the hell out of fences, but that does cross into exploitation territory), so I view it as more of a gray area. I occasionally do it in some runs, or if I'm doing a no-exploits run, accepted (rest abuse, etc) or otherwise, then I don't.

    I suppose you could think of it (if shopping from an appropriate store), as selling a used one to the shop keeper to resell later at a cheaper price, and then buying a fully charged one from his stock...so...I mean you can rationalize it....
  • The user and all related content has been deleted.
  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    Would it make more sense that a physical item like a staff simply disappears with nothing left (pile of ashes, empty staff, whatever) after using up all its invisible magic? If it's broken, a broken weapon remains. A staff can be recharged until it falls apart, too. I rarely do that, but I think it's a logical thing to do.
  • I view it as a harmless exploit most of the time. Especially since the game showers you in attack wands. It only twigs my cheese sense when it's being done with rare or one of a kind charged items, like the Shield Amulet or the Horn of Kazgaroth.
  • Oxford_GuyOxford_Guy Member Posts: 3,729
    Kaigen said:

    I view it as a harmless exploit most of the time. Especially since the game showers you in attack wands. It only twigs my cheese sense when it's being done with rare or one of a kind charged items, like the Shield Amulet or the Horn of Kazgaroth.

    I agree with you about the Horn, but think it's still "legit" to recharge the Shield Amulet

  • QidzQidz Member Posts: 8
    Blades works like a charm in bg1 and are even more powerful in soa/tob.

    I will recommend to use 2 handed swords/halberds and crossbow in bg1 with special spins.

    With needed buffs they will be much more than viable in weapon fighting + you can use wands, scrolls and get the best "spellcaster level" in bg 1 :)
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
    Technically a Wild Mage can get the highest caster level..14 vs 10 for a bard...but it's random...on the other hand they do have roughly a 50% chance of being equal or higher then a bard...which is a pretty good deal over all.
  • IxtabaiIxtabai Member Posts: 23
    With so many people maligning the poor Jester, it only makes me want to play one all the more!

    Actually, this is probably how the Jester would be in reality--a pesky nuisance that the baddies feel they can simply ignore (to concentrate on the "bigger" threats in the vicinity). Looks like the Jester is doing his/her thing even here in the forums! So "meta-" !

    Yep, definitely going to try on the Jester for size: deck out with all kinds of tools, max dex. Yes, I can see it now ... cavorting madly in and out of the fray, firing spells, launching bolts from the crossbow, blasting wands, and dancing amid the carnage like a deranged musician, plucking madly at my lyre!

    The enemies will try to ignore me, and get burned by my varied arsenal! They will scream at me to shut up, then go mad! They will swat at me, but frustratingly miss (High Dex)!

    My party will do the hard work knocking them off, and of course I'd take first pick at the spoils (my companions won't even know what stuff is really worth! (high Lore). I'd be the "face" of the party, the leader, naturally (high Cha) and i'd fence our goods to rack up gold. We'd be the richest, most entertaining, (and most dangerously underestimated) party of adventurers in Faerûn!
  • Oxford_GuyOxford_Guy Member Posts: 3,729
    BTW the Jester kit has now been updated with it's correct description in-game:

    Advantages:
    — May use Jester's Song ability. While active, the Jester's Song affects all enemies within 30':
    1st Level: Every round enemies must Save vs. Spell at +2 or be Confused for that round
    15th Level: Every round enemies must Save vs. Spell at +2 or be Confused, and Save vs. Spell or be Slowed for that round.
    20th Level: Every round enemies must Save vs. Spell at +2 or be Confused and knocked unconscious, and Save vs. Spell or be Slowed.

    Disadvantages:
    — None.

    Although the description for 20th is misleading, the way it's worded now makes it sound like it's 1 save for 2 effects, it should really say:

    20th Level: Every round enemies must Save vs. Spell at +2 or be Confused, Save vs. Spell at +2 or be knocked unconscious, and Save vs. Spell or be Slowed.


    They still need to update the description for the default Bard, the in-game description for this doesn't actually say exactly what the song does nor how it levels, I think it should be:

    Lvl 1: +2 morale per round
    Lvl 15: +1 Luck, +2 Morale per round
    Lvl 20: +2 Luck, immunity to fear and morale break.

    Luck gives:
    +1 hit/damage/saving throws/morale



  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    @Ixtabai: Welcome to the Jester club. :D
  • Oxford_GuyOxford_Guy Member Posts: 3,729
    Ixtabai said:

    With so many people maligning the poor Jester, it only makes me want to play one all the more!

    Actually, this is probably how the Jester would be in reality--a pesky nuisance that the baddies feel they can simply ignore (to concentrate on the "bigger" threats in the vicinity). Looks like the Jester is doing his/her thing even here in the forums! So "meta-" !

    Yep, definitely going to try on the Jester for size: deck out with all kinds of tools, max dex. Yes, I can see it now ... cavorting madly in and out of the fray, firing spells, launching bolts from the crossbow, blasting wands, and dancing amid the carnage like a deranged musician, plucking madly at my lyre!

    The enemies will try to ignore me, and get burned by my varied arsenal! They will scream at me to shut up, then go mad! They will swat at me, but frustratingly miss (High Dex)!

    My party will do the hard work knocking them off, and of course I'd take first pick at the spoils (my companions won't even know what stuff is really worth! (high Lore). I'd be the "face" of the party, the leader, naturally (high Cha) and i'd fence our goods to rack up gold. We'd be the richest, most entertaining, (and most dangerously underestimated) party of adventurers in Faerûn!

    What alignment do you intend to play? I've gone Neutral Evil, the familiar for this alignment is the Dust Mephit, which can cast Glitterdust once per day and Glass Dust twice a day. For enemies that fail their save vs. Glitterdust, they are blinded and get (amongst other things) -4 to subsequent saves (e.g. Jester song...), so works nicely for a Jester PC :-)
  • IxtabaiIxtabai Member Posts: 23

    What alignment do you intend to play? I've gone Neutral Evil, the familiar for this alignment is the Dust Mephit, which can cast Glitterdust once per day and Glass Dust twice a day. For enemies that fail their save vs. Glitterdust, they are blinded and get (amongst other things) -4 to subsequent saves (e.g. Jester song...), so works nicely for a Jester PC :-)

    I also want to play evilly, or at least run with evil characters. The Dust Mephit does seem like a natural choice for the Jester. And I think Neutral Evil fits very nicely with what a "classical" Jester would ideally be: jostling for the ear of the "king" (or other powerful person) so as to advance her own position, power, and wealth; but at the same time never believing in any real allegiance and subtly manipulating those in power with her charm.

    But I was actually thinking of trying the Chaotic Neutral alignment, if simply to fit the way I plan to do battle (as in my description above). After all I am not in any royal court, I am in the wilderness most days, and I am quite mad, or perilously unstable.

    However, the familiar for CN characters is the cat, but I have no particular preference for it. I am not sure how the cat will really be of much benefit to me other than by adding it to my arsenal and having the option to fling it into the eyes of an onrushing orc à la Minsc ["go for the eyes, boo...!"] after all, familiars can be mere inventory items, yes?).

    Thanks for the interesting query. I guess my answer in sum: I want to play CN but i'd rather a dust mephit!
  • IxtabaiIxtabai Member Posts: 23

    @Ixtabai: Welcome to the Jester club. :D

    Thanks! Unfortunately still waiting for the game to arrive on Mac because that is my machine at the moment. Haven't played the old BG in ages but I feel like I am playing it already in my head (character creation is just about done, I am lining up NPCs, and I ain't even got the game yet!)
Sign In or Register to comment.