Will a Wizard Slayer with Full Plate +5 and a Large Shield +5 get shredded in TOB anyway?

PugPug

Just wondering if it's worth taking a shield or if it would be wiser to throw caution to the wind and dual wield for an additional miscast stack per round.

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

moopy

And then consider not being a wizard slayer.

Unless you are going to dual to Thief.

And even then I still think Kensai / Thief comes out on top of Wizard Slayer / Thief.

PugPug

Well, obviously. But I'm really only wondering about enemy THAC0s.

ReadingRambo

Dual class to thief and get use any item is my suggestion

Djimmy

PugPug said:

Well, obviously. But I'm really only wondering about enemy THAC0s.

In ToB mobs will hit you pretty often, even your AC is -12 and less, better use magic protections like Protection From Magic Weapons if you possibly have.

PugPug

Thanks.

DinsdalePiranha

fire giants have thac0s along the lines of -4.

they can also kill someone in 3 hits on insane. and have about 250 hit points.

there are rooms with 8 of them at the same time.

long story short, unless you're hiding behind a wall of summons and carrying an artillery rivaling about a dozen apache helicopters, *they will fuck you up.*

though they tend to put down a lot of hurt on anybody. Except an FMT. An FMT has protection from magic weapons AND time traps.

okay, they won't hurt anybody majorly who can stop time or become immune to their weapons, but you get my point.

btw feel free to dual wield, the shield is pretty solid (aka next to no difference) even without any points in it when you need it.

leeho730

Up to you. Possibly dual wield if you're going to give Big Metal Unit to Wizard Slayer.

AHF

Dual wield. As others have said, the AC won't make much difference in TOB. From a power gaming perspective, there are many, many better choices than the Wizard Slayer class but you won't get 'shredded' either. The difference between a normal fighter and the wizard slayer is that the wizard slayer has to be more carefully micromanaged but they are similarly effective overall (again, I'd prefer plain fighter but you are in the same ballpark).

Sharn

Shield's only really seem to make a difference on a character dedicated to defense. You can have a character with greater then -20 ac with a shield, but you will be giving up offense for it, still, its nice to see even the strongest enemies in the game missing almost all their attacks.

ZanathKariashi

You'd be better off wearing armor that had immunities. Wizard slayers have very little in the way of gear choices, and if you're running solo, you need to make every slot count. Given how fast you can kill enemies at epic levels, armor doesn't matter at all, besides a little to filter out the mook hits. Aeger's Hide (AC 3) gives some elemental resistance and immunity to confusion, which was my go to armor until the grandmaster's Armor (since in my game wizard slayer's couldn't use boots of speed).

Good, Solo, Wizard slayers are really the only time I've been able to justify making Crom Faeyr...Evil can hit 24 or 25 natural strength if they're imported with a base str of 18 or 19. But good caps out at 21 or 22..the 25 str is actually good improvement (40 more damage under GWW vs 22 str, or 50 vs 21), and since you're going to have to use GWW anyway, Crom ensures none of your 10 attacks are wasted. I usually go with FoA as my go to MH, since it's without contest the highest damage 1 hand weapon (assuming GM Flails and Hammers, FoA+5 + Crom Faeyr, under GWW, a projected 323-396 damage per round, and given the thac0 you're rocking by that point, you basically have to roll a 3 or less to miss the 4 highest AC (-10) enemies in the game (not counting Drizzt, who is -14 vs blunt).

If you're running with a party, then your gear doesn't matter at all...as long as your weapons can damage the enemy, you can kill them naked with no problems at all if the mood strikes you.

bbear

Just cheese it w/ a stack of 3 physical resistances. I recommend the forbane+5 for non-planar monsters.

PugPug

DinsdalePiranha said:

fire giants have thac0s along the lines of -4.

OK, so...

Best Plate in BG2/TOB: Base -2 AC (plate +5, full plate +3)
21 Dex gives -5 AC: (would have to be an elf or halfling)
Best shields in BG2/TOB: -5 AC

Final AC: -12 (@Djimmy was right)

So with an AC of -12 and an enemy THAC0 of -4, they would need to roll... 8? And without the shield, they'd need to roll a 3. So it does help. It's not like they can hit you on a 2 with or without the shield, as is often the case in DDO.

I'm not saying the shield is a good idea, I'm just saying it at least would function.

EDIT: Evil characters can get an additional innate -2 to AC at the end of BG2.

DinsdalePiranha

@PugPug: yup, shield does help a lot, but it just isn't enough... say, if tough enemies had just high (low) enough thac0s to hit you only on crits with shield, but 30% of the time when dual wielding (long day, can't do math), then I'd be all for it - sadly, even if mr fire giant only hits you 60% of the time, that's still about 55% more then the ideal.

basically, by ToB, AC is not the most ideal form of defense - it works like a charm in BG1 and even in BG2, but by late game, unless you have other protections (damage resistance, stoneskin/ironskins/mirror image), you'll get hit quite a lot.

PugPug

DinsdalePiranha said:

basically, by ToB, AC is not the most ideal form of defense - it works like a charm in BG1 and even in BG2, but by late game, unless you have other protections (damage resistance, stoneskin/ironskins/mirror image), you'll get hit quite a lot.

I don't remember any physical damage resistance gear, and those spells are self-only. CHARNAME can obviously be whatever class combination he or she chooses, but what about the stock NPCs? What can they do?

I know there is lots of status effect immunity gear, which is what I've used in the past.

TJ_Hooker

PugPug said:

DinsdalePiranha said:

basically, by ToB, AC is not the most ideal form of defense - it works like a charm in BG1 and even in BG2, but by late game, unless you have other protections (damage resistance, stoneskin/ironskins/mirror image), you'll get hit quite a lot.

I don't remember any physical damage resistance gear, and those spells are self-only. CHARNAME can obviously be whatever class combination he or she chooses, but what about the stock NPCs? What can they do?

I know there is lots of status effect immunity gear, which is what I've used in the past.

The Defender of Easthaven flail, sold by Joluv in the Copper Coronet (one of the 2 bonus merchants) provides +20% resistance to all forms of physical damage. Also I think the Belt of Inertial Barrier may provide some resistance to missile damage or something.

Lemernis

I would think that with a Wizard Slayer you'd want the most attacks per round possible, since each hit reduces the target's ability to spellcast by 10%. So I'd dual-wield for sure.

I do understand that this class has some serious shortcomings, but I'm still drawn by the challenge of how to optimize it. I've never played one, but I'm thinking about it for my next run...

I hear what folks are saying when they point out that if a Fighter gets in 10 hits on a mage, the wizard will be dead anyway! But with the enemy's various spell protections does it actually work out that way? At least with the higher level opponents, I mean. In many cases you can hit, yes--but you're also having to whittle your way through various buffs before you begin doing damage. It seems to me that in such cases the WS adds the bonus of spell failure for such opponents. I love that idea.

Maybe this kit makes more sense for the SCS and SCSII mods, assuming that there the enemy mages use smarter buffs.

I do understand that a Berserker and Kensai are superior. But best I can tell, a WS does offer something above and beyond vanilla for high level (well buffed) opponents.

There are such powerful ways to debuff enemy's with magic that you'll be more effective with the combo savvy spellcasting and the more powerful warrior classes and kits. But the game doesn't always have to be about simply how to be the most devastating and uber. It still sounds like a fun and interesting challenge to see how the game plays with this kit. To me anyway. Guess I'll find out eventually.

bbear

If you are a thief, you can equip the following to get -26 AC.

I think max AC from equipment caps at -20 and the additional Dex bonus is -6 for a total of -26.
-drink potion of mind focusing to get 25 Dex (abundant in churches)
-white dragon armor (set AC to -2)
-best defensive shield (-5 AC bonus)
-2 Kangaxx rings (-4 AC bonus)
-Cloak of Sewer (-1 AC bonus)
-Helmet of Balduran (-1 AC bonus)
-Amulet of Master Harper (-3 AC bonus)
-Yamato (-1 AC bonus)
-Blur (-3 AC bonus)

Now you just need to worry about critical hits (and magic).

bbear

Forgot to mention, but thief HLA Greater Evasion will greatly improve AC by 6 for 5 rounds.

DinsdalePiranha

PugPug said:

DinsdalePiranha said:

basically, by ToB, AC is not the most ideal form of defense - it works like a charm in BG1 and even in BG2, but by late game, unless you have other protections (damage resistance, stoneskin/ironskins/mirror image), you'll get hit quite a lot.

I don't remember any physical damage resistance gear, and those spells are self-only. CHARNAME can obviously be whatever class combination he or she chooses, but what about the stock NPCs? What can they do?

I know there is lots of status effect immunity gear, which is what I've used in the past.

there's Defender of Easthaven, as previously mentioned, and Jansen AdventureWear for Jan or anyone with UAI (thieves). also, Belt of Inertial Barrier, and Roranach's Horn (50% crushing resist), but those aren't that useful.

for stock NPCs, well... half of them are mages, most have other defenses (Minsc, Anomen - shield of faith, Jaheira - Iron Skins), or can just be kept out of melee combat... but for example Korgan and Sarevok, well, they're gonna have a hard time with quite a few enemies.

PugPug

bbear said:

If you are a thief, you can equip the following to get -26 AC.

I think max AC from equipment ng
-Cloak of Sewer (-1 AC bonus)
-Helmet of Balduran (-1 AC bonus)
-Amulet of Master Harper (-3 AC bonus)
-Yamato (-1 AC bonus)
-Blur (-3 AC bonus)

Now you just need to worry about critical hits (and magic).

2 Rings of Gaxx is cheating and will most likely be fixed though, so you might have to settle for one of those being a Ring of Nature or something. The one you find in D'arnise Keep. (spelling?)

bbear

It's called Ring of Earth Control. The 2nd ring of Gaax is not cheating (more like cheese). You dont need to cheat code or shadowkeeper in the ring.

AHF

bbear said:

It's called Ring of Earth Control. The 2nd ring of Gaax is not cheating (more like cheese). You dont need to cheat code or shadowkeeper in the ring.

That is like saying the infinite experience dialogue are not cheating because you are only abusing a game bug and not using the console or shadowkeeper.

bbear

Nah, I still view it as cheese. The difference in viewpt is due to different alignments. I'm the non-lawful type.

AHF

bbear said:

Nah, I still view it as cheese. The difference in viewpt is due to different alignments. I'm the non-lawful type.

I think it is consistency in application of criteria. You justified not stealing or something that is alignment dependent but using a bug that duplicates a unique item by arguing that it was OK since there was no use of the console, shadowkeeper, etc. If that is the correct standard, then infinite experience loops, potion switch, etc. are all equally valid under that standard because they likewise do not use the console, SK, etc.

There is no alignment based rationale for distinguishing the duplication of a unique item; there is simply the acknowledgement that it is a bug and then saying you enjoy it and plan to do it anyway -- which is perfectly fine. Many people enjoy a lot of the bugs in the BG series and feel the game would be poorer for their removal. There is nothing wrong with that.

valky

bbear said:

I think max AC from equipment caps at -20 and the additional Dex bonus is -6 for a total of -26.
Now you just need to worry about critical hits (and magic).

Cap is correct afaik, at least -26 AC as the final value. Not quite sure about the armor cap, some informations state it's -20 other -24, but I guess it's -20, cause you usually have 18 dex anyway.
One note, Prot from Evil seems to be the exception as it is counted as a thac0-penatly to the attacker. (imp invis should count so too but with -4)

(proof: http://www.valkyries.de/attack_roll.jpg - was only a test and took korgan just to confirm something else; note the protection modifier in his attack roll against Tyris)

2nd assumption is wrong :P Certain enemies will hit you nonetheless, took the liberty to c&p some of it and confirmed only a few, but its right. (usually base-thac0 + specialization up to GM + STR bonus + and/or hardcoded bonus)

Yaga Shura: –16, –18 when enranged (this one I'm not sure of, as he has two different weapons)
The Ravager: –15
Irenicus (as slayer): –13
Draconis (I think — his file is just "purple dragon"): –13
The Huntress (Watcher's Keep final seal guardian): –13 with bow (plus called shot ability), –9 with sword
Incidentally, other Watcher's Keep final seal guardians:
- Xei Win Toh: –6
- Nalmissra: –2
- Ameralis Zauviir: 2
- hive mother: 1
- Y'Tossi: 3

Balthazar: –12
Melissan (final battles): –12 with her spear, –11 with her dart (strangely, she's has no proficiency, so this includes a penalty, as she's a cleric/mage)

various other dragons:
- "FSDRAGON" (the green dragon on the penultimate level of Watcher's Keep): –12
- Firkraag: –12
- "red dragon" (maybe Saladrex, the one in Watcher's Keep, except he doesn't have any dropable items): overall –12
- "brown dragon" (the one in the hell trials, maybe?): –11
- "yellow dragon": –11
- Thaxll'ssilliyia (shadow dragon), –10
- Nizidramanii'yt (the black dragon in Sudanesselar): –10
- silver dragon: –9

Sendai (form 5, the strongest): overall –8, –10 when enraged
fire giant elite: –6

bbear

valky said:

bbear said:

2nd assumption is wrong :P Certain enemies will hit you nonetheless, took the liberty to c&p some of it and confirmed only a few, but its right. (usually base-thac0 + specialization up to GM + STR bonus + and/or hardcoded bonus)

Just to clarify, do you mean those enemies hit you because of low thaco or they ignore AC altogether?

valky

bbear said:

valky said:

bbear said:

2nd assumption is wrong :P Certain enemies will hit you nonetheless, took the liberty to c&p some of it and confirmed only a few, but its right. (usually base-thac0 + specialization up to GM + STR bonus + and/or hardcoded bonus)

Just to clarify, do you mean those enemies hit you because of low thaco or they ignore AC altogether?

Of their low thac0, used a weird quoting to begin with and this was posted in regard to "Now you just need to worry about critical hits (and magic)."
There are a few more of them with quite some low thac0, who "easily" beat a Player's AC of -26 with not just a critical hit roll.
As already mentioned, with Imp Invis + Prot Evil, you can reach a pseudo-AC of -32, cause the -6 of both buffs are counted on the attackers roll and not directly to your AC, else every other direct buff gets ignored cause of the hard-capped AC.

bbear

I read from other posts in this forum that the thaco bonus from improved invisibility is not working as it was intended. Unless that's fixed then max (min) AC is -28.

PugPug

I realize this thread has evolved into a wider discussion, but to summarize for anyone besides me who is interested, it looks like a shield will make a WS get hit less often against mooks, but against elite guys or bosses, there is no benefit from the extra AC at all. They will always hit except if they roll a critical miss. Though I guess if the shield has really nice secondary bonuses, you could consider it.

Sadly, this is one of the limitations of the d20 system. At high levels, the dice roll becomes a smaller and smaller part of the picture, and the statistical differences between classes become so vast that balance becomes very difficult and only hyperspecialization is rewarded. Dungeons & Dragons Online is so overinflated that this happens around level 8.