Operation metal Storm (Darts, Daggers)

Horatio

I wanted to test how well darts and throwing daggers performed now that they have STR bonus. ( I fixed darts in my game with near infinity to go by the book).

I had a small party which consisted of a Gnomish Fighter/ Illusionist, Half Elf Fighter/Druid (the healbot as clerics cannot use darts) and a Half Orc Fighter/ Thief. All had ** in darts in one game then ** in throwing daggers the next game.

All had 18/00 str apart from the orc of course and 18 dex.

Unbelievable. Try it the third attack from darts is barely noticable in damage comparison to the daggers. Everything dies before it can even get to you. Elminster fell in a matter of 60 seconds, I am in the process of completing the game but I have never had so much fun as with this party.

ajwz

"Fastest dart thrower in the west? Are you some kind of idiot?"

Oxford_Guy

it would've been even more excessive if you'd had Skald in your part adding +2 to hit and +2 damage to every attack… I'm really glad they *didn't* add the strength damage bonus to darts, would make them very OP, at least with daggers they have significant carry weight and there are no maguc ones in BGEE

Horatio

Not op, just a viable alternative to bows, albeit without the good side effects like detonation arrows or dispelling or piercing.

DJKajuru

So... do you really think that Mike Tyson throwing darts would cause one hell of a damage?

Horatio

Of course, if he could hit them.

Macadami

I've ran a dart throwing Blade before; offensive spin meant death to all for 24 seconds. Was pretty fun, I think I hacked an elf for the 19 dex bonus with the idea of dualing long swords but the movement speed bonus and max damage made darts plenty.

DJKajuru

Daggers I understand - metal will have a greater impact if thrown by a strong arm...

I'm no physics professor, but I believe that darts are rather light to benefit from such an impulse.

Quartz

I love people who think outside the box and actually try throwing daggers and darts. Good job!

Horatio

Darts are not so different from throwing daggers. Have a look below:
http://www.knifecave.com/fantasy/store/prodlist.jsp?Mode=Text&SearchText=dart&Search=GO

TheCoffeeGod

Those are shuriken, not darts (regardless of what sell by name they are given).

DJKajuru

Heavy stuff is based on strength . You can throw three darts per round because they're so light and easy to manage.

scriver

Martial darts. They're not exactly what we throw at each other in bars.

clanqui

Think something like this.

http://www.iloveswords.com/ROMAN_Weapons_105.html

Lemernis

I recall one forum member posted during the summer or fall that Trent Oster recommended playing a dart thrower in EE. I guess this is why.

That sounds neat. I would add a character who hurls throwing axes as well.

Oxford_Guy

scriver said:

Martial darts. They're not exactly what we throw at each other in bars.

If they're meant to be "heavy" darts in BGEE, then they should be given significant carry weight (like throwing daggers) in BGEE, and smaller stacks, as it is, they weigh zilch and can be stacked to 80 (daggers are 40 currently, I think)

DJKajuru

Ah, so roman darts are heavier...

Oxford_Guy

Quartz said:

I love people who think outside the box and actually try throwing daggers and darts. Good job!

I'm trying a Skald build currently in BGEE (alongside my main elf fighter/mage game) who uses darts (and scimitars), they work well if you can keep the Skald song going (can be tricky, but is possible) - each dart does 2-5 damage w/o the song (Skald +1 innate damage), 4-7 damage with the song (each with +3 to hit, +1 from Skald innate, +2 from the song, that's a potential 12-21 damage)! With +1 darts this becomes 5-8 damage per dart, or max 15-24 per round, obviously even more when hasted...

I'd use throwing daggers more (especially as they now get the strength bonus) if:

a) there were *any* magic one in BGEE (a +1 returning one would suffice, or if consider OP, unlimited availability of +1 disposable ones, like the +1 unlimited Beruel's Retort throwing axes introduced in Beregost in BGEE), as there *are* enemies immune to non-magical items (actually, can you use a spell to make throwing daggers temporarily magical? I can't remember...)

and

b) Currently in BG2 vanilla, whilst there are a few good magic throwing daggers (up to +3 e.g. Firetooth +3 THACO, 1-2 fire damage, Returns to thrower), there are not many (though BGEE may introduce more), also throwing daggers don't currently receive the strength damage bonus in BG2 (throwing axes and one magical sling are the only ranged weapons that do) and it's not been confirmed yet whether this will change for BG2EE, so could be a risky weapon choice to rely on, if expecting a Str-based ranged damage bonus for daggers in BG2EE

bbear

If I have the programming genius, I would mod a kit called Ninja.

Ninja -> Kit for thieves

Advantages:
-Can Grandmaster at darts and daggers (+1/2 atk per round, +2 hit, +3 dmg, -2 weapon speed)
-+2 to Movement Rate, +20% Move Silently
-Special Ability: Create Shuriken at level 1 (special dart that deals 1d4 dmg, Quantity: 40, once per day that lasts for 24 hours)
-Special Ability: Create Shuriken+1 at level 7 (1d4+1 dmg, +1 hit, Quantity: 40)
-Special Ability: Create Shuriken+2 at level 13 (1d4+2 dmg, +2 hit, Quantity: 40)
-Special Ability: Create Shuriken+3 at level 20 (1d4+3 dmg, +3 hit, Quantity: 40)
-Special Ability: Create Shuriken+4 at level 28 (1d4+4 dmg, +4 hit, Quantity: 40)

Disadvantages:
-Cannot Backstab
-Cannot Wear Armor
-+15 Thief Points at level up

Oxford_Guy

Lemernis said:

I recall one forum member posted during the summer or fall that Trent Oster recommended playing a dart thrower in EE. I guess this is why.

That sounds neat. I would add a character who hurls throwing axes as well.

Throwing axes, even with 19 Str are still not that amazing, as are 1 APR weapons *unless* you get lot's of extra attacks due to weapon mastery, fighter levels or haste, then they really do become *nasty*, good range too.

Oxford_Guy

bbear said:

If I have the programming genius, I would mod a kit called Ninja.

Ninja -> Kit for thieves

Advantages:
-Can Grandmaster at darts and daggers (+1/2 atk per round, +2 hit, +3 dmg, -2 weapon speed)
-+2 to Movement Rate, +20% Move Silently
-Special Ability: Create Shuriken at level 1 (special dart that deals 1d4 dmg, Quantity: 40, once per day that lasts for 24 hours)
-Special Ability: Create Shuriken+1 at level 7 (1d4+1 dmg, +1 hit, Quantity: 40)
-Special Ability: Create Shuriken+2 at level 13 (1d4+2 dmg, +2 hit, Quantity: 40)
-Special Ability: Create Shuriken+3 at level 20 (1d4+3 dmg, +3 hit, Quantity: 40)
-Special Ability: Create Shuriken+4 at level 28 (1d4+4 dmg, +4 hit, Quantity: 40)

Disadvantages:
-Cannot Backstab
-Cannot Wear Armor
-+15 Thief Points at level up

I like the concept, though I think you'd at least need to lower the number of magic darts created for balance, especially the higher level ones, even the Cloak of Stars only creates *six* +5 darts per day.

Also, allowing Grand Mastery for a Thief kit seems wrong, I'd say only allowing 2 or 3 points in darts and daggers at most.

Oxford_Guy

BTW I've only just realised this after some recent testing (see: http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/14383/racial-weapon-types#latest ), but halflings don't just get their racial +1 THAC0 modifier with slings, they also get this for darts too (but *not* throwing axes or throwing daggers)! Darts could be nasty in the hands of a halflng with fighter levels...

BTW does anyone not what weapons halflings get racial modifiers in PnP? Is it *all* thrown/hurled weapons (slongs, darts, daggers, axes) or just some? Seems odd they gets darts in BGEE, but not daggers, though axes might be a bit weird for halflings to get bonuses for.

Wilbur

DJKajuru said:

So... do you really think that Mike Tyson throwing darts would cause one hell of a damage?

Mike Tyson would use spears as darts.

Oxford_Guy

Oxford_Guy said:

BTW I've only just realised this after some recent testing (see: http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/14383/racial-weapon-types#latest ), but halflings don't just get their racial +1 THAC0 modifier with slings, they also get this for darts too (but *not* throwing axes or throwing daggers)! Darts could be nasty in the hands of a halflng with fighter levels...

BTW does anyone not what weapons halflings get racial modifiers in PnP? Is it *all* thrown/hurled weapons (slongs, darts, daggers, axes) or just some? Seems odd they gets darts in BGEE, but not daggers, though axes might be a bit weird for halflings to get bonuses for.

Actually, it seems halflings may only get the +1 THAC0 bonus for slings and what is reported on the character sheet for darts is probably a bug, see: http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/12372/thac0-window-showing-redundant-data-for-halflings-other-confusing-thac0-for-slings-bonuses