Party with Bard (Jester) and Sorcerer but no Mage viable?

Oxford_Guy

Hi - because of a certain, ah, new addition to the game, I'm thinking of adding a Sorcerer to one of my current parties, but that means removing one of my current NPCs either Kagain or Neera (decided to have a change from Edwin). I know, however, that Sorcerers are not as flexible as Mages and don't have such a large spell selection, BUT, CHARNAME is a Bard (a Jester, in fact), so I do have another spell-caster. I quite like Neera, but am thinking of removing her from my party when I've done her quest(s?) and met a certain someone. The alternative would be to remove Kagain, but that only really would leave Dorn on the front line, as I dualed Shar-Teel to a Thief at Level 3.

Will my party still be viable with a "proper" mage, if I have just a Sorcerer and my Jester?

My current party is:

Dorn (Blackguard)
Kagain (Fighter)
Viconia (Cleric)
CHARNAME (Jester - Neutral Evil)
Shar-Teel (Dualed Fighter/Thief)
Neera (Wild Mage)

Quartz

Yeah, why not? You'll miss out on 5th level mage spells, but those are hardly vital for the game, they're more luxurious than anything.

the_spyder

For my game play, I always like to have at least two front rankers. And it is hard to make an argument for getting rid of Kagain in any event (in my view).

But.... You could always give the Gauntlets of Ogre power to Viconia. She isn't going to be the powerhouse that Kagain is, but.... it might fill that gap.

And it really depends on where you are in the game. Early on, having two mages in the party can be a real handicap. Not that it isn't defeatable at that point, just that it is harder. Later on (and in BG2), tanks tend to become more meat shields and your casters are doing more actual spell casting. At least that is my experience.

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

Mykra

Oxford_Guy said:

Hi - because of a certain, ah, new addition to the game, I'm thinking of adding a Sorcerer to one of my current parties, but that means removing one of my current NPCs either Kagain or Neera (decided to have a change from Edwin). I know, however, that Sorcerers are not as flexible as Mages and don't have such a large spell selection, BUT, CHARNAME is a Bard (a Jester, in fact), so I do have another spell-caster. I quite like Neera, but am thinking of removing her from my party when I've done her quest(s?) and met a certain someone. The alternative would be to remove Kagain, but that only really would leave Dorn on the front line, as I dualed Shar-Teel to a Thief at Level 3.

Will my party still be viable with a "proper" mage, if I have just a Sorcerer and my Jester?

My current party is:

Dorn (Blackguard)
Kagain (Fighter)
Viconia (Cleric)
CHARNAME (Jester - Neutral Evil)
Shar-Teel (Dualed Fighter/Thief)
Neera (Wild Mage)

The more arcane and divine casters you have, the stronger the party is. Just have a little bulk up front to keep them clean, and you can run just about any combo with no problems. Looking at your list I would say that if it was me, I would either sub out Dorn or Kagain. Mages and Sorcs have amazing synergy together, so Neera can handle all the fancy control spells while the Sorc blasts things to oblivion.

KidCarnival

I'm pretty much in the same situation. (Except Branwen as cleric and Edwin instead of Neera).

So, first things first - the guy you plan to pick up does not have Invisibility or Glitterdust. (Not sure if he gets Greater Malison when he levels up). So you need to depend more on scrolls and your familiar than you would with a mage who can learn those. You'll also be the only one able to cast Sleep, so I recommend to get the Wand of Sleep from High Hedge and hang onto it with your life. As for the rest, your spell needs are covered; you have someone to cast Fireball and Dispel Magic and such essentials.

If you kick Neera, you simply take a more independant role with the jester; casting your invisibility and lowering saving throws stuff without backup (except the mephit's dust).

If you kick one of the front liners - what I did - you are going more into a melee role, and I recommend the Dagger of Venom as main weapon. Ideally, you have your tank (in my case Kagain) with Boots of Speed, so he distracts everyone before you reach the frontline, leaving you the time to decide if you just need to support him via invisible singing, or throw some dust in and melee yourself.

I don't see why it wouldn't work to run without a mage, since you can cover the spells important to a jester alone. Greater Malison is nice, but you wouldn't have it for a while either way. The mephit's glass dust works well enough so long.

Oxford_Guy

Mykra said:

Oxford_Guy said:

Hi - because of a certain, ah, new addition to the game, I'm thinking of adding a Sorcerer to one of my current parties, but that means removing one of my current NPCs either Kagain or Neera (decided to have a change from Edwin). I know, however, that Sorcerers are not as flexible as Mages and don't have such a large spell selection, BUT, CHARNAME is a Bard (a Jester, in fact), so I do have another spell-caster. I quite like Neera, but am thinking of removing her from my party when I've done her quest(s?) and met a certain someone. The alternative would be to remove Kagain, but that only really would leave Dorn on the front line, as I dualed Shar-Teel to a Thief at Level 3.

Will my party still be viable with a "proper" mage, if I have just a Sorcerer and my Jester?

My current party is:

Dorn (Blackguard)
Kagain (Fighter)
Viconia (Cleric)
CHARNAME (Jester - Neutral Evil)
Shar-Teel (Dualed Fighter/Thief)
Neera (Wild Mage)

The more arcane and divine casters you have, the stronger the party is. Just have a little bulk up front to keep them clean, and you can run just about any combo with no problems. Looking at your list I would say that if it was me, I would either sub out Dorn or Kagain.

Well, Dorn is a stayer until I can get to Badlur's Gate at least, as I want the Elven Chain for my Jester... Also, she has designs on romancing him, though Kagain does rock with his axe...

Mykra said:

Mages and Sorcs have amazing synergy together, so Neera can handle all the fancy control spells while the Sorc blasts things to oblivion.

It's tempting, also the sorcerer will be loading up on Invisibility spells for my Jester (if he can...)

Oxford_Guy

KidCarnival said:

I'm pretty much in the same situation. (Except Branwen as cleric and Edwin instead of Neera).

So, first things first - the guy you plan to pick up does not have Invisibility or Glitterdust. (Not sure if he gets Greater Malison when he levels up).

Can he not pick Invisibilty later and/or Gillterdust?

KidCarnival said:

So you need to depend more on scrolls and your familiar than you would with a mage who can learn those. You'll also be the only one able to cast Sleep, so I recommend to get the Wand of Sleep from High Hedge and hang onto it with your life. As for the rest, your spell needs are covered; you have someone to cast Fireball and Dispel Magic and such essentials.

If you kick Neera, you simply take a more independant role with the jester; casting your invisibility and lowering saving throws stuff without backup (except the mephit's dust).

If you kick one of the front liners - what I did - you are going more into a melee role, and I recommend the Dagger of Venom as main weapon.

I was going to give that to Shar-Teel, as she will my dagger specialist, though there are two other +2 daggers for her to dual-wield

KidCarnival said:

Ideally, you have your tank (in my case Kagain) with Boots of Speed, so he distracts everyone before you reach the frontline, leaving you the time to decide if you just need to support him via invisible singing, or throw some dust in and melee yourself.

I don't see why it wouldn't work to run without a mage, since you can cover the spells important to a jester alone. Greater Malison is nice, but you wouldn't have it for a while either way. The mephit's glass dust works well enough so long.

Glass Dust doesn't reduce saves, just AC and THAC0, I think, only the familiar's Glitterdust spell reduces saves...

EnterHaerDalis

you might have more fun when you minimize the power gaming aspect. You should kill Neera for starters and try to act a little more evil considering your in a hellish band of carnage

mwaha

KidCarnival

I haven't leveled Baeloth yet, so I don't know what spells will be available to pick. I do hope there will be area invisibility, because that's the one my jester doesn't have yet. In Black Pits, he did, and it was a beautiful thing to...

- First thing to do: become invisible via sandthief ring
- Sing
- Wait for party to kill most of enemies
- Once party is damaged/near death/out of spells/heals: gather and cast area invisbility - render the entire party invisible and safe from remaining enemies, with the jester at full health and spells to clean up

If Baeloth can get that spell, I'm ok with him not having normal invisibility and glitterdust. Greater Malison would be really nice tho.

Hm, my Shar-Teel uses Greywolf's sword, so I can have the dagger. I guess Heart of Golem is a good alternative for the jester in that case. (You have dagger proficiency, right?) Shar-Teel uses the weapon (whichever) more than the jester, who also spends a fair amount of time invisible/singing. I see my jester as a bit of an assassin, so I gave him the poisoned weapon to pretend-kit.

Ya, glass dust isn't a replacement for Greater Malison - but it's the next best thing if you don't have access to the spell. I still hope Baeloth can learn it, or maybe Emotion or so, which also worked nicely with the jester song in Black Pits.

Mykra

Oxford_Guy said:

Mykra said:

Mages and Sorcs have amazing synergy together, so Neera can handle all the fancy control spells while the Sorc blasts things to oblivion.

It's tempting, also the sorcerer will be loading up on Invisibility spells for my Jester (if he can...)

He doesn't come with Invis, but Sorcs get new third level spells ( Invis 10' is 3rd right?) at level 7,8, and 9 so he should be able to pick it up just fine.

I haven't used a Jester before, but I bet the Jester could handle the Mages control role just fine, allowing the Sorc to nuke away. I only stress the Sorc nuking part because this guy is built to make things explode. It seems almost wasteful to have him spend his casts buffing and de-buffing.

shawne

I faced almost the exact same situation, albeit with a different PC.

I think that Neera is the expendable party member at this point: presumably you've already completed her questline, so there's little more for her to do, and while it's true that Sorcerers are a bit more restricted in their spellcasting, the trade-off is being free of potentially fatal wild surges...

[Deleted User]

I just leveled the Sorcerer in question from 6 to 7, and he got one additional spell known at 1st, 2nd, and 3rd levels. So you shouldn't have any problems picking up Invisibility and/or the area version. Assuming he follows the normal Sorcerer progression (and I don't see why he wouldn't), you'll get another 2nd level spell at level 9, so you'll have the option of picking up both Glitterdust and Invisibility (which would be my priorities in your situation).

Aristillius

Add spoiler tag maybe? @Oxford_Guy @Kid_Carnival @Kaigen

OT
I believe all alternative mentioned here are perfectly viable. What it comes down to is what you like - and find most enjoyable. Perhaps you like dwarves better? Or RP-wise Neera is just too volatile to keep around.

Sharn

Definitely viable, viable meaning competitive even if not the ideal choice from a power gaming perspective.

KidCarnival

We're not in the spoiler-free section. I think it needs no tags in this context, since Oxford_Guy mentions (spoiler-free) in the first posting who he plans to recruit. It shouldn't come as a surprise that there are replies about that NPC.

Oxford_Guy

BTW there's still a long way to go, my Jester is only level 3, not even gone into Nashkel mines yet, taking a break from my main fighter/mage party while the devs sort out the ranged APR issue, but hey! Maybe this will become my "main party"...

Oxford_Guy

KidCarnival said:

We're not in the spoiler-free section. I think it needs no tags in this context, since Oxford_Guy mentions (spoiler-free) in the first posting who he plans to recruit. It shouldn't come as a surprise that there are replies about that NPC.

Yes, I thought I was quite discrete, considering some threads...

KidCarnival

Regarding the option to be left with Dorn as only front liner... It may be unusual, but... Shar-Teel doesn't lose her STR and DEX as a thief. Both still serves her very well in melee and she has melee proficiencies. It's not the first choice to make the thief a front liner, but it does work well for me. I figured I don't really need an archer if I have a mage with sling and dex gauntlets and a sorcerer with proficiency in darts, should they run out of spells. If you trade the dwarf for the drow, you aren't neccessarily left with only one front liner, especially if your jester is also capable of melee in his visible time.

Debaser

@Oxford_Guy

Between Viconia, Baeloth, Neera, your Jester....I'm pretty sure you'd be able to summon a lot of monsters to help with tanking too...

Tank with Shar-Teel, and Off-Tank with Dorn...

Oxford_Guy

Debaser said:

@Oxford_Guy

Between Viconia, Baeloth, Neera, your Jester....I'm pretty sure you'd be able to summon a lot of monsters to help with tanking too...

Tank with Shar-Teel, and Off-Tank with Dorn...

This might be an option, am thinking of putting most of Shar-Teel's thief points into Find Traps/Open Locks (then Set Traps) and relying on Invisibility spells for scouting (actually better than the thief stealth skills as you can disarm traps whilst invisible), so when not trap-finding or trying to open things could leave her in plate armour. Am not sure whether to focus her on daggers or long swords, though - no one else is using long swords, so that route might be best, but will leave her with only 1 pip in shortbows for a ranged weapon. My Jester currently has Scimitars and Darts, was then going to go Crossbow at Level 4 and perhaps Daggers at Level 8 for for dagger of Venom, so that when I want to stop singing and go visible, I can at least start with a nice attack (with stealth THAC0 bonus, if not backstab)

KidCarnival

Two folks with daggers are one too many. The venom one is better for your jester, to mockingly resemble those dead serious assassins. I gave Shar-Teel those +2 ranged weapon bracers to suck not too much, and mainly have her in melee with Greywolf's sword. Works well enough.

Also, Baeloth now has Glitterdust and Sleep; going for the Invisibilities next level.

Oxford_Guy

@KidCarnival - I decided to go daggers at level 4 with my Jester, with 18 Strength she hits harder with them ranged than (non-magic) darts too... Crossbows can wait until level 8, I can't afford the Light Crossbow of Speed anyway yet, have just blown a load of gold on Full Plate and the +1 composite bow for Dorn... Shar-Teel will go Longswords...

Lemernis

It's possible to beat the game playing almost anything. (How enjoyable that might be in some cases is another question.) So I'd say, sure, go for it. That sounds like a fun party. Sorcerers are pretty darned powerful in their own right!

Debaser

@Oxford_Guy

I still think Halberds are the best choice for any Bard Class that's NOT a blade.

Chelsea crusher on your bard who only had 1 attack anyway...and Dagger of Venom and the Heart of the Golem on Shar-Teel to wreck house with....

Oxford_Guy

Debaser said:

@Oxford_Guy

I still think Halberds are the best choice for any Bard Class that's NOT a blade.

Chelsea crusher on your bard who only had 1 attack anyway...and Dagger of Venom and the Heart of the Golem on Shar-Teel to wreck house with....

I see what you mean, but the Chesley Crusher is *slow* though, so makes it difficult to get in an attack and then resume Bard song before the end of the round, to keep enemies confused. Later my Jester will be using one of Drizzt's Scimitars, of course (though unfortunately not the better one, as am playing evil). Think I'm going go with Varscona and the Harrower (+1/+3 vs. Undead) for Shar-Teel, replacing the Harrower with Flame Tongue (much) later

Oxford_Guy

Debaser said:

@Oxford_Guy

I still think Halberds are the best choice for any Bard Class that's NOT a blade.

Chelsea crusher on your bard who only had 1 attack anyway...and Dagger of Venom and the Heart of the Golem on Shar-Teel to wreck house with....

I see what you mean, but the Chesley Crusher is *slow* though, so makes it difficult to get in an attack and then resume Bard song before the end of the round, to keep enemies confused. Later my Jester will be using one of Drizzt's Scimitars, of course (though unfortunately not the better one, as am playing evil). Think I'm going go with Varscona and the Harrower (+1/+3 vs. Undead) for Shar-Teel, replacing the Harrower with Flame Tongue (much) later