[(BG1, BG2) Sling Bullets getting strength bonuses]

CamDawg

This is one I'm putting up for discussion. In BG1, slings received strength bonuses to damage. When BG2 rolled around, the devs changed their minds and no slings added strength bonus, save the sling of seeking which explicitly mentioned it in its description.

So now we've got BG1 slings in a BG2 engine--strength bonuses for slings, yay or nay?

Either way, magical sling bullets have an extraneous strength bonus that should be removed:

// disallows str bonus for magic bullets
COPY_EXISTING ~bull02.itm~   ~override~
              ~bull03.itm~   ~override~
              ~bull05.itm~   ~override~
              ~bull06.itm~   ~override~
  PATCH_IF (SOURCE_SIZE > 0x71) THEN BEGIN // protects against invalid files
    READ_LONG   0x64 "abil_off"
    READ_SHORT  0x68 "abil_num"
    WHILE ("%abil_num%" > 0) BEGIN // looks for ranged ability header
      SET "abil_num" = ("%abil_num%" - 1)
      READ_BYTE   ("%abil_off%" +        ("%abil_num%" * 0x38)) "type"
      PATCH_IF ("%type%" = 2) BEGIN // ranged ability check
        WRITE_BYTE  ("%abil_off%" + 0x26 + ("%abil_num%" * 0x38)) 0 // disallow strength bonus
      END
    END
  END
  BUT_ONLY_IF_IT_CHANGES

CamDawg

SethDavis said:

Checking this one now. Looks like I'm just fixing the bullets for now?

[EDIT] Potentially fixed - @CamDawg 's fix has been applied

Yeah, just the bullets--whatever else, applying the strength bonus twice is right out.

Bhryaen

Confirmed Fixed:
No bullets in the game have a STR bonus.

Boaster

While we're at it, the one and only bow that requires 19 Strength, the strong Arm, should include a Strength bonus on the bow.

And as for slings, sure, why not? It throws them a bone.

bigdogchris

This was already discussed here: http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/1141/slings-and-strength

Quartz

I'm super confused. Are they keeping the strength bonus or not?

AndreaColombo

No, they aren't. BG:EE will follow the BG2 method, whereby slings do not get the STR bonus, but throwing axes do. Let us not forget that the Sling of Seeking (*wink* @Cuv *wink*) in BG2 adds the STR bonus to damage rolls as its special ability. If this was made standard for all slings, then the Sling of Seeking would be... not special?

Quartz

AndreaColombo said:

No, they aren't. BG:EE will follow the BG2 method, whereby slings do not get the STR bonus, but throwing axes do. Let us not forget that the Sling of Seeking (*wink* @Cuv *wink*) in BG2 adds the STR bonus to damage rolls as its special ability. If this was made standard for all slings, then the Sling of Seeking would be... not special?

Can I have a Sling of Seeking in BG1 then ?

Bhryaen

Well, this fix was for bullets, not slings, of course... Haven't gotten to that one yet...

Ardanis

Boaster said:

While we're at it, the one and only bow that requires 19 Strength, the strong Arm, should include a Strength bonus on the bow.

Bad decision, if you ask me, bows are supposed to have a cap on the max STR bonus. At least in DnD 3e.

Within Item Revisions we have implemented the following rule for composite bows - they receive damage bonus equal to that of their STR requirement. I.e. a bow with 16 STR req gets +1 extra damage, with 18 - +2, and Strong Arm - +7.

Tanthalas

It makes sense to cap the strength bonus on bows and make it equivalent to the strength requirement to use the bow.

Pulling harder on the string will just break the bow.

Boaster

Boaster said:

While we're at it, the one and only bow that requires 19 Strength, the strong Arm, should include a Strength bonus on the bow.

Bad decision, if you ask me, bows are supposed to have a cap on the max STR bonus. At least in DnD 3e.

Within Item Revisions we have implemented the following rule for composite bows - they receive damage bonus equal to that of their STR requirement. I.e. a bow with 16 STR req gets +1 extra damage, with 18 - +2, and Strong Arm - +7.

Interesting. I like this. It's about as close to receiving the Strength bonus as they'll get.

bigdogchris

I'm sorry if this is beating a dead horse but I have a few comments about this.

In the 2nd edition manual, Slings are considered missile weapons not hurled, so I understand removing the STR bonus. However, DEX ATK bonus should still apply for Slings, is that the case in BG:EE?

"Dexterity modifiers to the attack roll are applied when making a missile attack with a hand-held weapon"

"Missile weapons are divided into two general categories. The first includes all standard, direct-fire, single-target missiles, such as slings, *snip* "

Tanthalas

@bigdogchris

DEX bonus to THAC0 is being applied to all missile weapon types as far as I can tell.

bigdogchris

Great, thanks!

sarevok57

actually in bg2 all slings gave a str bonus, i never understood why the sling of seeking said it added str to damage because every sling does, unless the sling of everard and the sling +2 and normal slings are exceptions, i've always seen the str bonus work on them

kamuizin

The stronger you swing a sling, the fast and harder the stone will hit, i believe that slings should use strengh bonus, and sling of seeking should double the bonus based on strengh maybe, with some luck, the bows lose a bit their superiority over all the other ranged weapons.

Just to add, more named crossbows and named darts with special effects and that return to the owners hand would be nice also, if the unique darts are added, the quantity of darts found in random through the game should diminish also.

Well, just suggestions.

CamDawg

sarevok57 said:

actually in bg2 all slings gave a str bonus, i never understood why the sling of seeking said it added str to damage because every sling does, unless the sling of everard and the sling +2 and normal slings are exceptions, i've always seen the str bonus work on them

Nah, it just seems that way since the strength bonus in BG2 came from the bullets--only the Sling of Seeking is supposed to provide it. This fix is originally from the BG2 Fixpack.

bigdogchris

CamDawg said:

sarevok57 said:

actually in bg2 all slings gave a str bonus, i never understood why the sling of seeking said it added str to damage because every sling does, unless the sling of everard and the sling +2 and normal slings are exceptions, i've always seen the str bonus work on them

Nah, it just seems that way since the strength bonus in BG2 came from the bullets--only the Sling of Seeking is supposed to provide it. This fix is originally from the BG2 Fixpack.

Is the STR bonus on bullets still in place?

CamDawg

There's no strength bonus on bullets in either BGEE or BG2 w/ Fixpack. Slings are still getting strength bonuses in BGEE since they had them in BG.

sarevok57

@CamDawg then why does the sling of everard still give me the str bonus when it doesnt have any bullets?

CamDawg

Fixpack removes the strength bonus from the Sling of Everard as well. The consensus (one of the few times) among the team was that the Sling of Seeking's description + slings getting their strength bonuses removed from BG to BG2 was pretty good evidence that slings were not intended to have strength bonuses in BG2.

sarevok57

well which ever it is, if someone is using a sling a ling ding a ling, they should be able to add their str bonus to it ( in terms of damage dealt, dont care if it be on bullets or the sling itself), or else slings would be horrendously aweful, and plus how this sling is used, it is used the str way, i would love this tower of a titan thats carrying around 1600 lbs like its nothing picks up his sling RAAAAAAAAARRRRR whips a bullet at you, and still does a meesly 1d4+1 damage? um nOoOoOoOoOOooOOoooOOOooooOOOO....... its bad enough throwing daggers dont get strength ( which they should since that manual said that all throwing weapons you add your str) or they could just nerf absolutely everything and make it so that no missile weapon regardless of what it is gets a strength bonus, so then titans throwing axes at people only do 1-6 damage at a time yEeEeEeAAaaAAAaaaHHHHHhhhhh.......

SpaceInvader

sarevok57 said:

well which ever it is, if someone is using a sling a ling ding a ling, they should be able to add their str bonus to it ( in terms of damage dealt, dont care if it be on bullets or the sling itself), or else slings would be horrendously aweful, and plus how this sling is used, it is used the str way, i would love this tower of a titan thats carrying around 1600 lbs like its nothing picks up his sling RAAAAAAAAARRRRR whips a bullet at you, and still does a meesly 1d4+1 damage? um nOoOoOoOoOOooOOoooOOOooooOOOO....... its bad enough throwing daggers dont get strength ( which they should since that manual said that all throwing weapons you add your str) or they could just nerf absolutely everything and make it so that no missile weapon regardless of what it is gets a strength bonus, so then titans throwing axes at people only do 1-6 damage at a time yEeEeEeAAaaAAAaaaHHHHHhhhhh.......

Couldn't agree more...

bigdogchris

I can understand why someone would think slings should receive a STR bonus to damage. However, when you think about it in terms of real physics, when someone uses a sling there is only so much speed you can put on it before the sling rips into pieces. But when you think about a hand held item, a small child could hit you as hard as they can and have it barely hurt, but if someone very strong hit you with it, it's going to hurt a lot more. Those two examples show a distinction, I believe, as to the black/white of what should/shouldn't receive a strength bonus.

The point is a Halfling should be able to spin a sling as fast as a Half-Orc, thus putting the same amount of velocity on the bullet, which would mean STR bonus would not apply.

sarevok57

but usually, the stronger you are the faster you can swing that sling, halflings have technique, which gives them the edge, but in general having a higher str will be more effective, kind of like a shot putter in real life, it requires technique and str to throw that ball far, but in gerernal the stronger you are, the further its going to go, plus halflings only get +1 to hit, not to damage, and in terms of breaking the sling, what about magical ones? in theory magical stuff is invincible is in not? well at least in terms of using it, plus slings need to add their str bonus or else bows would be overwhelming better in everyway, i think it was balanced that slings had a str bonus, i would have loved it if the archer could get 5 points in sling, because then i never would have used a bow

bigdogchris

@sarevok57

I appreciate what you are saying, but disagree, not everything needs to be balanced. Some people like using particular equipment for reasons other than being the most powerful. Plus, slings can be used by classes which bows are not allowed, so even if slings are less powerful they still have uses.

Oxford_Guy

AndreaColombo said:

No, they aren't. BG:EE will follow the BG2 method, whereby slings do not get the STR bonus, but throwing axes do.

Does the Strength bonus also get added to the Dwarven Thrower throwing hammer?

Oxford_Guy

AndreaColombo said:

No, they aren't. BG:EE will follow the BG2 method, whereby slings do not get the STR bonus, but throwing axes do.

@AndreaColombo - Well, currently it seems slings (or perhaps just their bullets?) are the *only* ranged weapon to get a strength bonus in BGEE, throwing axes (nor throwing daggers) don't seem to:

When I equip Dorn (who should get +7 strength damage if this bonus is applied) with the the following weapons, the character sheet indicates the following damage:

Throwing Dagger 1-4
Darts 1-3
Sling 9-12
Throwing Axe - 2-7

Of the above it looks like *only* slings are getting the strength damage bonus applied. Is this correct? If so the manual is definitely wrong about throwing daggers and axes, but I think this has already been reported, onthe other hand, if the strength bonus for slings is correct, this *should* be indicated in the manual...