Bard vs Fighter/Mage
So I've heard that fighter/Mage is the most powerful build in BG1 but then I wonder what F/M gets that a bard doesn't.
Comparing an elf F/M with an helf Blade
Max HP: (10*7+4*7+3*7)/2= 59 HP vs 10*6+10*2=80 HP
Average HP: (5.5*7+2.5*7+3*7)/2= 39 HP vs 10*3.5+10*2= 55 HP
THACO: 14 F/M -1 for elf. -1 for specialisation. vs 16 Bard base. -2 offensive spin.
APR: +0.5+0.5 for F/M. +1 for offensive spin.
Damage: +2 weapon spec. +2 offensive spin. +3.5 for max damage (assuming scimitar).
Spells/day: 4/3/2/1 vs 3/3/2/1 though ring of wizardry tips it.
Armour: Archmagi robe vs Elven Chain
Saves: 10/9/11/12/10 vs 11/10/10/14/11
Other perks: ? Vs pickpockets, bard song, lore, defensive spin (-10 AC for 24 seconds, 3/day)
Am I missing anything? For me I think the added tanking potential of +15-20 HP and defensive spin makes bard the better character for BG1. There are other similar options too of course.
Comparing an elf F/M with an helf Blade
Max HP: (10*7+4*7+3*7)/2= 59 HP vs 10*6+10*2=80 HP
Average HP: (5.5*7+2.5*7+3*7)/2= 39 HP vs 10*3.5+10*2= 55 HP
THACO: 14 F/M -1 for elf. -1 for specialisation. vs 16 Bard base. -2 offensive spin.
APR: +0.5+0.5 for F/M. +1 for offensive spin.
Damage: +2 weapon spec. +2 offensive spin. +3.5 for max damage (assuming scimitar).
Spells/day: 4/3/2/1 vs 3/3/2/1 though ring of wizardry tips it.
Armour: Archmagi robe vs Elven Chain
Saves: 10/9/11/12/10 vs 11/10/10/14/11
Other perks: ? Vs pickpockets, bard song, lore, defensive spin (-10 AC for 24 seconds, 3/day)
Am I missing anything? For me I think the added tanking potential of +15-20 HP and defensive spin makes bard the better character for BG1. There are other similar options too of course.
- Bard vs Fighter/Mage108 votes
- Fighter/Mage is the best62.96%
- Bard is better than Fighter/Mage37.04%
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Comments
In BG1, it's probably pretty even, but you have to remember the point of the bard is not to be powerful, but to be versatile.
A F/M versus a Blade (Might want to distinguish that kit rather than a generic Bard) is pretty close in BG1. Note that a F/M could theoretically don some heavy armor and tank with it, while a Blade is limited to leather. A F/M could also start out with ** in a weapon style, while the Blade only gets two proficiency at the start.
I might say that a F/M starts out more powerful in BG1, the Blade is better by the end of BG1, then the F/M regains superiority a ways into BG2 once they start getting higher level wizard spells that Bards can't learn. But still, apples vs. oranges.
Edit: Voting Bard because I enjoy the Blade's spins, mostly just to see the results out of curiosity.
Your HP calculation is off (I just tested with an 17 CON Elf F/M CLUA'ed to 161000 XP). Elven Fighter/Mages get 70 max HP, and that's assuming you don't give them the Con tome (and why wouldn't you?), which bumps it up to 77. BGEE must be rounding favorably for the multiclass, or maybe there's something off with the order of operations.
Also, Offensive Spin and Haste do not stack, so the F/M can hit three attacks to the Blade's two (and either can dual wield for an extra one just as easily). Once you factor in Strength bonus (Say +3 from an active Strength spell if you don't want to assume that either character could roll up a high strength with all the other stats they need) and/or a good magical weapon, the extra attacks outweigh max damage from Offensive Spin, though if both characters dual-wield it's close enough to call it a wash.
I'd still be willing to give the nod to the Blade in BGEE due to utility, better caster level, and having more options for your spell slots thanks to having the spins (although I'm personally a fan of the Gnomish F/I due to shorty saves, specialist spells per day, and 19 Con). If only you could make a Bard with one of the shorty races.
Comparing them in BG2, especially with ToB, is a whole 'nother ball of wax, since at that point you're trying to weigh high level spell slots and Fighter HLAs vs. Bard HLAs like Spike Trap, Time Trap, and Use Any Item.
With detect illusion and hiding skills to back stab and kill mages...and enrage to keep confusion and fear from running the show...maybe it's not stronger, but I really like that build.
Fighter / Mage Multi-Classes are strong, but I think Kensai / Mage (Dualed at 13 with Grand Mastery in Scimitars) is stronger potentially since improved haste is better than greater whirlwind AND you get KAI.
I know people always say Katana is better for Celestial Fury but I just don't think it outweighs Drizzt's Scimmies, Usano's Blade, Spectral Brand and Belm.
Throw on a good Strength Belt and replace Belm with Spectral Brand for it's immunities, or Crom Faeyr in the offhand instead of both and you're gold.
That "might" even beat fully upgraded Flail of the ages since you should have 11/2 APR naturally with Belm and Grandmastery. 9 of which should be main hand over two rounds and counted prior to the final offhand attack. (Attacks should be capped at 10 no matter what but you wouldn't have to cast anything to get your attacks up usually this way either.) And your THAC0 / Damage bonus should be ridiculous...not even counting all the mage spells available to any combination.
Though a Kensai / Mage Grandmaster in Flail's with FOA and The Defender Of Easthaven would be really damn powerful too...I'll have to do the math. You'd need to cast Improved Haste though to get your APR up. And not improve FOA to a +5 Weapon...AND you'd be out a +4 weapon early on in SOA, which Usano's Blade totally gives you.
The problem is BG1 alone without BG2 favors Fighter / Mage because of the level cap. But a Kensai / Mage dualed at 13 is a true Lord of Murder like Bhaal intended.
A fighter/mage is like a bard running around with offensive spin 24/7.
Don't forget that with the con tome you can push the F/M hp even higher, whereas the bard only benefits from 16 con. F/M HP is actually higher than bard HP if both are Half-Elves. including the Helm of Balduran, 89 vs 80 max(plus familiars).
Including that helm(and both with 19 str), F/M thac0 is 2 better(6/10) all the time than Bard thac0 is under Offensive Spin(8/10 with rogue rebalancing to grant 3 pips in 2-weapon fighting for Blades).
F/M has 1 more level 1 spell, or 5 more with Evermemory.
Mage robe and elven chain have the same AC, but F/M has the option of equipping sturdier armor when spells run out. F/M also has the option of equipping a shield(Until you get Twinkle)
F/M has better saves, and could potentially be played by a short race for even better saves.
Comparison of Half Elves below, 19 in every stat:
Concerning your list, you've missed:
HP: Fighter/Mages are a Potion of Fortitude away from an 18 Con, and as such a +28 HP on top of their 49 base HP which, incidentally, is the correct HP max. [7D14]/2 = 7D7 = 13-49. Multiclassing does not halve Constitution bonus, so this is +21, meaning 70 HP.
Average HP: I believe 'tis a Maths error, the first hitdie is always maxed. The correct averages as such are 31 and 33 HP before Constitution respectively.
APR: Offensive Spin doesn't stack with Haste, meaning that this works out at a net +2 for the F/M, +1 for the Bard. The Offensive Spin lasts four rounds, twice per day. Unless you're resting every fight, it's worth about a tenth of your total combats.
Damage: Fighter Strength - a Bard does not receive it, meaning getting an 18/51 or better strength for the F/M is a net +3 damage bonus over what the Bard can receive, even using the Strength spell.
Spells/day: Spell Level access is important, and the Fighter/Mage gets level 4 spells before the Bard does, in terms of Experience.
Armour: It's worth noting again how very awesome Archmagi Robes are compared to Elven Chain, considering they actually offer tangible bonuses on top of their AC bonus, which works out considerably better when you slap on Ghost Armour.
Other perks: Immunity to Critical Hits is one of the most important there is. Bards can't use shields. Bards get 4 Proficiency pips to spend and cannot specialise unless they're Blades. Fighter/Mages get 6 Proficiency pips and can specialise naturally.
So the actual difference you're looking at is, at BG cap with all the tomes and a theoretical max stats. Both are half elves - whilst elves are categorically superior to Half-Elves in pretty much every way except Ranger/Cleric, and the ability to be an elf is an advantage for the Fighter/Mage, it doesn't help compare the actual classes.
Both have 19 strength (but Fighter/Mages are better most of the game), for eight rounds per day, Blades get a mediocre bonus to damage.
HP: With maximum roles, an 19 Con, tomed Fighter/Mage has an HP of 84, the Bard has an HP of 80.
THAC0: Fighter/Mage has a THAC0 of 14, the Blade has a THAC0 of 16.
APR: The Fighter/Mage has 3 APR per day for about one round shorter than the Bard gets 2 APR per day, and gets 2 APR naturally without buffs or dual-wielding.
Weapons: Because they get more proficiency pips, they can actually get 2 pips in dual wield whilst specialising in a Ranged Weapon and a melee weapon, or just going with proficiency for their offhand and ranged attack method for even more versatility. The Fighter/Mage can also grab a shield for tanking purposes, a Blade cannot, and loses the only real means of getting extra attacks if they do.
Spells/day: The Fighter/Mage can use Evermemory, the Bard gets slightly more powerful magic missiles or longer lasting buffs.
Armour: The Fighter/Mage gets Magic Resistance and save bonuses, the Bard gets shafted.
Other perks: The Fighter/Mage is immune to critical hits, and potentially fear, or gets an extra +1 THAC0, or gets better saves, better HP, damage resistance, Charm Immunity. The Bard gets to pick pockets. The Blade's stunted Lore growth is completely irrelevant, because Identify is a thing.
Better Tank: Fighter/Mage.
Better Melee fighter: Fighter/Mage.
Better Ranged fighter: Fighter/Mage.
Better Mage: Fighter/Mage.
Better Damage per spell: Bard. Usually.
Better has a terrible bard song: Blade.
Bring the Fighter/Mage/Thief into this, and they still wreck the bard on most levels, coupling most of the above benefits with an x3 Backstab modifier and actual thief skills.
In SoA, a bard is better, the ability to dual-wield speed weapons eliminates the attack deficient against 93% of enemies in the game, while the F/M is still technically better in melee, the difference is overall so small it's not worth counting. It's not until the 3 mil mark that the F/M can really start to pull ahead, and that's only due to every balancing factor about multi-classes being thrown out the window by BG. On other hand, the difference isn't as large as you think. A properly played bard can easily pull every trick a F/M can, either by casting from scrolls or using HLA traps to compensate for not having 8th and 9th level spells (which if the 2nd Ed high level spell progression was properly implemented, bards eventually get up to 8th level spells, at lvl 29).
You can't even really judge the contest fairly (and even then, it's actually quite close, which is pretty hilarious in a way), since it's already biased in favor to the F/M by lazy rule implementation. Multiclasses suffer none of their PnP downsides while being almost completely intact mechanics-wise, while Bards have little of their abilities implemented (the lack of non-combat profs is especially glaring, since it VASTLY expanded their capabilities beyond what other classes could achieve, and leaves a lot of glaring gaps in their capabilities that don't actually exist in PnP), AND are actually further nerfed due to laziness on the part of the developers (seen most prevalently in the fact that rogues can't put more then * in two weapon, which in PnP they can become just as good at it as fighter's can (and Blades are supposed to start with the equivalent of ***, 0/-2).
Where are you stealing wands earlier than you can just walk to the lighthouse or farm maps?
True, you can purchase(but not steal) and wand of sleep or fear from High Hedge, but there is hardly a significant cost involved. The only expensive wand is Fireball outside Durlag's for ~6000gp at neutral rep.
You would also need to stock up on his potions of master thievery to pull off consistent shoplifts without being noticed. These come at 480 a pop and you cannot steal them. I hardly see how:
-Acquire powerful items
-Sell powerful items at shopliftable establishment
-Travel to Durlag's
-Purchase master thievery potions with ~2000 newly acquired gp
-Travel back to aforementioned establishment
-Steal back aforementioned items
-Travel to Durlag's/High Hedge
-Purchase wand
Is any faster than:
-Stop by friendly arm on your way to ankheg map and acquire invis potion/evermemory
-Travel one zone north and acquire wand/other assorted goodies
-Enjoy fireballs and extra sleep spells from new ring
In any case, I wouldn't think the above strategy is worth handicapping your character(from a powergaming POV. If you're not powergaming you wont care which class combo is better). F/M are immensely better in melee, particularly in the beginning of the game due to better thac0 and the extra half attack from specialization.
Your infatuation with bards in every thread borders on blind obsession, ZK.
So yes, you CAN take a skald with awesome buffing songs...
Have fun plaything through the hardest battles where you really want those buffs with only 5 characters.
Honestly this is probably my single biggest gripe with the BG series, I LOVE the bard concept, but the implementation of it's core ability sucks worse then a super-massive-black hole.
You should probably just shadowkeeper a helmet onto your bard's head at that point, though.
Not to mention...MC shouldn't even have specialization....the rule that allows them to specialize allows ALL classes to specialize (**), and no higher (only single class, unkitted fighters can achieve GM, while Kensai (1 bladed) and Archers (bows) can both achieve mastery (***) in 1 weapon type), but costs 2 proficiency instead of 1 for the 2nd point for priests/rogue/multiclasses that are part fighter (3 per point for single class mages). (non-kitted, single class rangers and paladins can specialize for the normal cost, but have to pay double if they take a kit)
And yes, I will admit from a powergaming standpoint, a F/M is better....but only slightly. Most of the F/M's "better" descends into overkill territory, that if you like big numbers, sure go for it, but while the bard puts out smaller numbers, it's still killing everything just as easily as a F/M can, just with less overkill. They're effectively the same overall.
@Elendar Bards are gay in BG...in 2nd edition they're one of the more powerful single classes (not in straight up combat of course, unless you're a Skald or Gallant), but still powerful overall due to broad access to non-combat proficiencies of every pool except priests, which vastly expands their list of abilities beyond what BG even hints they're capable of), which is why they're so damn hard to make in first place (You're supposed to roll your stats first, then you pick a race who's minimum stats you match, then you pick a class who's minimum scores you meet. BG flubs this by altering rolls to give you minimum stats for a class/race if the roll is lower).