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most effective ways to use Rasaad in combat (spoilers)

LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,318
I know there have been a number of threads discussing Rasaad, most often complaining of his various perceived shortcomings as both as Monk in BG1 and his stats.

But here I'm interested in learning how you all get the most out of him despite his flaws. Please share your strategies for using him to his true fullest potential in combat. It's fine if you want to say that you think he sucks. But for this thread it's just not terribly constructive or helpful.

As for myself:

Equipment
Early on I equip him with the Gauntlets of Dexterity, a RoP, the Girdle of Piercing, and a Shield Amulet. Even when you get him at level 2 when he uses a charge from the Shield Amulet his AC is -3 (and his modifier vs. missiles is -5).

I can't bring myself to equip him with

The cursed strength belt that raises Str to 19 and lowers Int to 6.


But later, when the Gauntlets of Ogre Power become available then I give him those. By then his AC is fine without the Gauntlets of Dexterity.

Weapon
His fists and feet, with which I'm pretty sure he gets the highest attacks per round versus other choices. He gets 1.5 APR at level 3 and 2 APR at level 6. (Does Stunning Blow only successfully stun with fists/feet or can it stun also using a weapon?)

Combat Strategies
I have him race towards mages or archers whenever the opportunity presents itself, seeking to stun them with Stunning Blow. If there are no such targets he assists the party's tanks, using his superior foot-speed to avoid heavily armored tanks. He often manages to disrupt enemy mages from spellcasting, even if he doesn't stun them. And he makes archers change to melee. Archers who switch to sword usually don't hit him with his AC -3.

At least in my first game, I really had no problem keeping him healthy this way. This approach does require some pretty strong tankage, though--at least two really strong meleers on the frontline, I would say.

***

Now that's my approach. But I have read some others describe using him more with ranged weapons, and/or with a sword. So I'm kind of curious about how folks might use him well other than the approach given above.
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Comments

  • DarkDoggDarkDogg Member Posts: 598
    edited January 2013
    I think every NPC will rule with all this powerfull items.
    Even Garrick :-)

    Btw you've forgotten to give Rasaad the Cloak of balduran and the ring of protection+2 and all phys tomes.
  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,318
    Garrick can in fact be used effectively as well. (I always root for the underdog.) :)
  • AristilliusAristillius Member Posts: 873
    SInteresting thread.
    I used Rasaad in a similar way, Lemeris. Dex gauntlets at first, then i gave him the cursed belt (which he percieved as a neccessary sacrifice) and bracers of brilliance after a few levels.

    He was an excellent slinger at low levels (I gave him prof here), with high thaco thanks to the gauntlets of dex. I only used him sparingly in melee. After lvl 6 and equipment change I buffed him from the rear 6th position to third. He would then normally come in after other meleers and work well that way. I also gave him cloak +2 and freedom of movement ring (I never bothered with shield amulet).


    I usually used him against single and vulnerable enemies, and as a second attacker on heavy hitters. He getscent thaco and ac, he has ok saves. But he is more vulnerable than straight up melee guys. His lay on hands works pretty well to keep him in the fight, however. He complemented my party well in this tactical role.
  • ReadingRamboReadingRambo Member Posts: 598
    I used Shadowkeeper to change his class. I really wanted to see his storyline but I don't like babysitting one particular member of my party. I made him a fighter thief and gave him a bow until after his quest line then dumped him. I like his character, but don't like low level monks (or high level ones that much either)
  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,318
    edited January 2013
    @EnterHaerDalis So if I may summarize what I think you said: The best way to utilize Rasaad? Don't use him at all. (Basically.)

    I can respect that opinion, btw. I'm just writing a brief guide on how best to use him should one decide to give him a go. :)

    Comparing pretty much any other NPC to Dorn as a damage dealer is gonna be lopsided. But I guess arguably one feels it the most with Rasaad.
    Post edited by Lemernis on
  • WowoWowo Member Posts: 2,064
    I gave him Twinkle for most of the time I had him which I seemed the best option to keep him alive and doing moderate damage.
  • EnterHaerDalisEnterHaerDalis Member Posts: 813
    @Lemernis lol fair enough. To give you a respectable answer though.. I did use slings with him to a reasonable effect in my initial play through. Slings or Darts and punches. Haven't tried twinkle yet - just doesn't feel right using a melee weapon with a Monk
  • theperm222theperm222 Member Posts: 84
    Just send him in battle last... he does kind of suck IMO, the ONLY reason I am using him is to check out the new storyline... will probably never use him again, except maybe in BG2EE. Also, I don't see any reason why you shouldn't give him the belt of strength... why does he need intelligence?
  • Last I checked, he can use Stunning Blow with a weapon equipped. Personally, I like to give him a +1 Wakizashi or the like until he hits level 6 and gets that extra half attack.
  • styggastygga Member Posts: 467
    I've been preaching Rasaad since November. He's amazing and all you naysayers are half-orc groveling swine.
  • AristilliusAristillius Member Posts: 873
    Yeah, he is definately weak, @EnterHaerDalis. I liked using him though. I think it is nice to have a mix of powerful and non-powerful guys. Makes you think more strategy. And Rasaad has the potential to fill some interesting roles. Can be annoying to babysit him however ;)
  • EnterHaerDalisEnterHaerDalis Member Posts: 813
    stunning blow totally should of had a THAC0 bonus in BG:EE
  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,318
    edited January 2013

    stunning blow totally should of had a THAC0 bonus in BG:EE

    Gibberlings 3 has a Monk Remix component for the Sword and Fist warrior class/kit rebalancing mod. I'm assuming that it more or less follows the 3rd ed. source book Sword and Fist. I may be wrong about that, though.

    Even just making that tweak... i.e., improved THACO for Stunning Blow... plus a few more items helpful for Monks (how about surikens?) should be an easy mini-mod to make for BG:EE.

  • NeonfiskNeonfisk Member Posts: 75
    edited January 2013
    Lemernis said:



    But later, when the Gauntlets of Ogre Power become available then I give him those. By then his AC is fine without the Gauntlets of Dexterity.

    At this point you can use potions if agillity if you feel your AC needs a boost. They give 18 dex and lasts for 3 hours - enough to time finish most dungeons (can be dispelled though).
  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,318
    edited January 2013
    @Neonfisk Lol, I finish the game with so many unused potions! But yeah, in lieu of giving the Dex gauntlets to Rasaad (in favor of another character) Potions of Dex is actually a pretty good solution.

    Even early in the game his AC is still pretty darn good without the Gauntlets of Dexterity, as his Dex is 16. So without the gauntlets or potions he actually takes very little damage anyway from mages or archers. I never have him slug it out toe-to-toe with a fully armored enemy bruiser anyway.
  • NeonfiskNeonfisk Member Posts: 75
    @Lemernis Yeah between his movement speed and his extra AC vs. missiles he makes a great anti-archer. He doesn't even need boots of avoidance or cloak of displacement to be good at it.
  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,318
    edited January 2013
    Sooo... to summarize thus far:
    • cursed belt, bracers of brilliance, cloak of protection +2, ring of free action
    • Drizzt's scimitar +5
    • + 1 katana, wazikash, ninjato (or in the same vein Rashaad's Talon scimitar +2)
    • keep him in the rear using a sling until level 6
    • have him help out heavier-duty meleers versus engaging in direct toe-to-toe slogs
    Question: If Rasaad is equipped with one of Drizzt's scimitars with a pip in Single Weapon Style, is he as effective--or more effective--than just using his dukes? He won't get as many attacks per round wielding a sword as he will with his fists and feet. But his THACO is surely better, the damage is just a little greater, and he can still stun (?). I've never tried equipping him with either of Drizzt's scimitars, but perhaps those who have can answer this.
  • NeonfiskNeonfisk Member Posts: 75
    edited January 2013
    @Lemernis
    Tested with Rashad's Talon - you can stun with it. Dont forget Single Weapon Style gives crit on 19-20 and +1 AC.

    So not only will you have higher THAC0 and damage, you will also crit double as much and have increased AC. Losing 1 APR seems worth it to me.

    I know Drizzt's scimitars are the best around but I don't like when peoble use them as means to "fix" weak characters.

    What I would do: give him the Dagger of Venom and train him only in stealth so he can scout.
    When activating stun you are still invisible for a few seconds after and being in stealth gives you a bonus to attack rolls.

    So you sneak up on a caster, activate stun, and stab him right after (I recommend auto-pause: spell cast). If the target is stunned he is taken out completely, if the target saves he will be poisoned and unable to cast. The extra movespeed should make you able to escape back to the rest af your party while avoiding melee attacks. makes him a great initiator.

    Of course a character with backstab can outright kill most casters in a single hit and probaly have better stealth (from boots + armor) making Rasaad (and monks in general) more of a gimmick when it comes to initiation.
    Monks can be difficult to work with at low levels.
  • NeonfiskNeonfisk Member Posts: 75
    edited January 2013
    Another thing to note:
    8th level barkskin gives base 4 AC, so does Shield Amulet.
    An 8th level monk will have a base AC of 5 making the above great buffs to use throughout the game.
  • AristilliusAristillius Member Posts: 873
    @Lemeris, @Neonfisk

    Yes. An important aspect with Rasaad is that he can stealth and be used as a scout. Since he has so few points to go around they should be invested in move silently - unless you *have* to use him to find traps - which he cannot disarm.

    Personally I gave him Rashaad's talon as a secondary weapon to use against foes who had magic resistance only. After all, he gets 2XD10 with fists at low levels, vs 1d8+2 with rashaads talon. Which gives fists more damage.
  • NeonfiskNeonfisk Member Posts: 75
    edited January 2013
    @Aristillius
    One chance at 3-10 vs. 2 chances of 1-10 each. It seems pretty even but then I remembered damage bonusses (from strength, Legacy of the Masters, etc.) are effectivly applied twice. If you can hit twice.
    I believe stunned creatures get a penalty to AC.

    So you could land a stun with a weapon and then switch to fists to finnish the target off.

    When landing the stun you only really care about the THAC0 bonus, so what weapon would that be? Short Sword of Backstabbing?

    Edit: I know the Drizzt scimitars are better, but they feel "cheaty" to me
    Post edited by Neonfisk on
  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,318
    edited January 2013
    FWIW, personally, I concur about not using Drizzt's scimitars (i.e., I don't). Even if he is a drow that could be KoS based on surface dwellers' experience with the drow (a heinously evil monster race in this fantasy world).
  • SirK8SirK8 Member Posts: 527
    I tried for a while to make good use of Rasaad, and there are ways as pointed out in this thread. However, to be honest, the best use I've made of him is to have my wizard memorize invisibility a few times and then cast in on him. With his monk speed he can scout a map for me pretty well and my group almost always has full visual on any upcoming fight. I have him sit out for most fights and only join in major fights or if he is needed.
  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,318
    edited January 2013
    Other than Drizzt's scimtars, to reduce THACO there's the "Whistler" Short Sword (THACO +2) available very early on. Rasaad's Talon scimitar (THACO +2) is also available early if you decide you just want to explore Durlag's above ground. The Dagger of Venom (THACO +2 plus poison damage) is available early but it takes a long while to gather the cash to buy it, and there's probably going to be gear for other party members that should be purchased first. In chapter 5 the Short Sword of Backstabbing (THACO +3) becomes available.

    For the sake of argument, let's say you have him using Rashad's Talon for a good portion of the game. I'm not sure yet that

    Rashad's Talon
    weapon speed 3
    THACO +2
    4-11 damage
    one point crit bonus (critical hit on rolls of either 19 or 20)
    1 attack per round

    trumps

    Fists/Feet
    weapon speed ? (1?) 0
    1-10 damage
    1.5 and later 2 attacks per round

    I try to use Rasaad to either disrupt or stun mages whenever possible. When using his fists and feet he has greater weapon speed and more attacks. I don't know if the scimitar's reduction of THACO by +2 matches or surpasses that capability.
    Post edited by Lemernis on
  • Generally speaking, I find that an extra chance to hit usually trumps a small attack bonus in terms of overall damage. @Neonfisk makes a good point, though, that the extra THAC0 is very useful when you really need to land that first hit coming out of stealth.

    Critical hits in BG are just a straight up x2 multiplier, right? That means Rashad's Talon has an average damage of 9 before adjusting for chance to hit, and his unarmed attacks average about 6 damage per hit (not counting any potential strength bonus in either case). I would say that if you're boosting up his strength in any fashion, that unarmed attacks come out ahead once he has 2 APR.

    I still like using a magic weapon and Single Weapon style for levels 4 and 5 to boost up his AC and accuracy, though, especially since I don't have those strength boosting items at that point.
  • NeonfiskNeonfisk Member Posts: 75
    @Kaigen Another thing about critical hits is that they ALWAYS hit, meaning Single/Two Handed Weapon Style makes you always have a 10% chance to hit with any THAC0.
    But since a roll of 19-20 would most likely hit anyway, it only really matters if you have a huge penalty (blindness fx).
  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,318
    edited January 2013
    To spotlight a question above, I'm wondering it there is any meaningful difference in the weapon speed of fists versus a scimitar. The Rashad's Talon scimitar has weapon speed of 3.

    One would think the fists and feet of a Monk is probably about as fast as there is, so I'm assuming speed is 1? Does anyone know?

    But moreover, does that weapon speed actually show up into the game engine's calculations of which combatant beats the other to the punch most often over a succession of rounds?

    It does visually look like it takes longer to heft a two handed sword (speed 10) than strike with a dagger (speed 2), for instance. Same with hurling a dart versus firing a crossbow. Etc.

    Because again, that would definitely matter to interrupting a spellcaster.
  • Weapon speed definitely matters for how early in the round attacks happen (and therefore interrupting spellcasters or having a chance to kill an enemy before they make their attack). You can test this by turning on the attack roll feedback and comparing combatants with differing weapon speeds.

    I'm not sure about weapon speed on fists, but I know the class description gives Monks -1 weapon speed at levels 8 and 12, so I'm assuming the base is greater than 0 and probably at least 2. I can poke through NI when I get home to try to find the base speed if someone doesn't beat me to the punch.
  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,318
    @Kaigen Thanks. If the weapon speed is only 1 point difference (i.e., if fists are 2 whereas Rashad's talon is 3), then it's not going to matter. But I would think that if we're talking about speed of 1 with 2 attacks per round that might tip the scale.
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