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[REQUEST] Restore Grand Mastery to AD&D rules, by thschutt

BoasterBoaster Member Posts: 622
edited May 2012 in Archive (Feature Requests)
http://www.reddit.com/r/FriendsOfBaldursGate/comments/souhr/request_restore_grand_mastery_to_add_rules/

[REQUEST] Restore Grand Mastery to AD&D rules, by thschutt
The original weapon specialization table for BG is different from the table in BGII. The table was nerfed for BGII for supposed “balancing” reasons, but most players do not seem to agree with this. People can double check my tables here, but I believe the comparison is as follows:

Original BG Weapon Specialization Table: Proficient (1): +0 hit, +0 damage, 1 attack; Specialized (2): +1 hit, +2 damage, 3/2 attacks; Mastery (3): +3 hit, +3 damage, 3/2 attacks; High Mastery (4): +3 hit, +4 damage, 3/2 attacks; Grand Mastery (5): +3 hit, +5 damage, 2 attacks

Nerfed BGII Weapon Specialization Table: Proficient (1): +0 hit, +0 damage, 1 attack; Specialized (2): +1 hit, +2 damage, 3/2 attacks; Mastery (3): +2 hit, +2 damage, 3/2 attacks; High Mastery (4): +2 hit, +2 damage, 3/2 attacks, (+1 speed); Grand Mastery (5): +2 hit, +3 damage, 3/2 attacks

In BGII, the difference between Specialized (2) and Grand Mastery (5) is only +1 hit and +1 damage which seems far too remote for spending three entire proficiency points. I fear that one side effect of using the improved BGII Infinity Engine will be that the nerfed table will be used even though the original BG was balanced for the first table with the better Grand Mastery. And ultimately, it would be better to have the original Grand Mastery in BGII anyway because it sets Fighters more apart from Paladins and Rangers who already have their own significant advantages.

Comments

  • AndreaColomboAndreaColombo Member Posts: 5,530
    I fully support every request for P&P adherence (and will likely put forth a few of my own).
  • TanthalasTanthalas Member Posts: 6,738
    This is one of the mod components that I always install when playing BG2.
  • BoasterBoaster Member Posts: 622
    Same here!

    It sucks how Fighters got the shaft and it all turned over to magic.
  • HeroicSpurHeroicSpur Member Posts: 907
    Agree fully, it's really disappointing how unspectacular grand-mastery is.
  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 6,002
    yeah that game balance nonsense is exactly that nonsense, it made it 100 % to be a pure fighter (no kit just fighter) because of that change to the proficientcy table, but i would agree with one blance issue, in bg 1 if you hade 5 stars on a weapon, it didnt give you an extra half attack per round, it gave you a whole attack per round, i think that is a little extreme, making it so fighters have a whole attack per round more than paladins and rangers, i think it should actually do as it says, and only give an extra half attack per round more and the 5 star level, fighters would only have 5/2 attacks per round at level 9 instead of 3, and keep the +3 to hit/ +5 to damage/ -1 to speed factor, getting rid of that was plain garbage
  • GrammarsaladGrammarsalad Member Posts: 2,582
    This is one of the mod components that I always install when playing BG2.
    Ohhh which one if you don't mind my asking?
  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 6,002
    there is a mod on sorcerers.net that makes it so in bg II you can have the bg I weapon tables the link is here: http://www.sorcerers.net/Games/BG2/index_mods_hosted_fixes_tweaks2.php and it under the: BG2 Grand Mastery Rules Fix Patch by TeamBG
  • AndreaColomboAndreaColombo Member Posts: 5,530
    @Grammarsalad

    I believe @Tanthalas is referring to the mod BG2 Tweak pack. It has a component to restore Grand Mastery to its BG1 table (which, if memory serves, is closer to P&P but still not entirely there).
  • GrammarsaladGrammarsalad Member Posts: 2,582
    Thank you both!
  • ElectricMonkElectricMonk Member Posts: 599
    edited June 2012
    I completely support this request, definitely restore grandmastery to AD&D rules.
    Post edited by ElectricMonk on
  • SpartacusSpartacus Member Posts: 23
    This may be a stupid question, but I wanted to ask it just to clarify.

    When we talk about restoring the BG1 proficiency table, we are talking exclusively about the numerical benefits of specialization, and not the specialization slots themselves, correct? I much preferred the plethora of options for proficiency points in BG2 compared to BG1. Having separate proficiency slots for Mace, Club, Quarterstaff, Hammer, etc., felt much more interesting to me than one overarching proficiency slot like "Blunt."

    Again, probably a stupid question, but I just wanted to clarify. For the record, I agree wholeheartedly that Grand Mastery should use the BG1 values, but I would want to keep the BG2 weapon proficiency slots for the greater diversity.
  • BoasterBoaster Member Posts: 622
    No. Not combining the weapons into shared proficiencies, just the benefits of the points spent into them.
  • carugacaruga Member Posts: 375
    edited June 2012
    I'm in favour of this, but I also understand why they nerfed it (also specialized was nerfed, too, not just GM).

    If there are a few more class restrictions, I think this could be in aid of making certain classes (particularly non-kits) more attractive.
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963
    I'm in favour of this, but I also understand why they nerfed it (also specialized was nerfed, too, not just GM).

    If there are a few more class restrictions, I think this could be in aid of making certain classes (particularly non-kits) more attractive.
    I don't get why they did it. Magic is way more powerful than having a few extra whacks with your weapon. A Mage can kill you with his finger (of DEATH).
  • carugacaruga Member Posts: 375
    I'm in favour of this, but I also understand why they nerfed it (also specialized was nerfed, too, not just GM).

    If there are a few more class restrictions, I think this could be in aid of making certain classes (particularly non-kits) more attractive.
    I don't get why they did it. Magic is way more powerful than having a few extra whacks with your weapon. A Mage can kill you with his finger (of DEATH).
    One might argue that mages could be a bit stupid as well. I think they may have freaked out when they decided to permit selecting grand mastery on character creation, and saw what kind of bonuses that was confering right at the start of the game. Irenicus' dungeon may have been too easy.
  • AndreaColomboAndreaColombo Member Posts: 5,530
    I think they may have freaked out when they decided to permit selecting grand mastery on character creation, and saw what kind of bonuses that was confering right at the start of the game. Irenicus' dungeon may have been too easy.
    It's not like they decided to permit the achievement of grand mastery at character creation: it's the rules that explicitly allow 8th level characters to be grand masters in a weapon. If a dungeon is too easy when playing by the rules, it's not the rules' fault: it's the dungeon's fault. Nerfing the rules is tantamount to making the AI cheat in order to be challenging: an awkward solution to a problem that is mostly due to design faults. Given a set of play tested rules, if something's wrong within them then it's the design that should be upgraded.
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963
    After you leave the first dungeon what about the rest of the game? What about the 99% of the rest of the game? There are other things you could do to make it an easy ride through the first dungeon
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