Help with Kensai/Druid

Eudaemonium

Hello All!

I am thinking of running with a Kensai, dualled to Druid, for RP reasons (I know Berserker/Druid is technically better). The issue in doing this is that I need at least 15 STR, 17 WIS and CHA, but obviously for the Kensai part I would very much like to still have decent DEX and CON. I also don't want to gimp INT, because I don't want to think my character is stupid.

Anyway, I managed to roll a 92, and have them currently allocated like this:

STR 15
DEX 18
CON 16
INT 9 (figure I'd up it to 10 with the tome, for an average stat).
WIS 18
CHA 16 (will up to 17 w/ tome).

Do these stats look any good to you? Would anyone have a suggestion on how to utilise the roll better.

ajwz

My suggestion would be increase con to 16 (so you get the maximum +2 hp per level whenever you decide to dual to druid) and set int to 10 (then boost to 11 with tome) if you intend to carry on to bg2.

Maybe drop charisma a bit to do this

[Deleted User]

Ugh, yeah, the Fighter->Druid statline is a pain in the ass to roll for. You could drop a point of Wis for a point of Con, but that means you lose a bonus 5th level spell from having 20 Wis instead of 21, and 5th level is the money level for Druids. You could drop Str to 14 and tome it up to 15 (since 15->16 is a marginal +1 damage), but with how late you get the Str tome, you'd either have to rush through the game to get it in time to dual, or just not level up after you hit your target level and make up the XP in the final chapter somehow.

Madhax

ajwz said:

My suggestion would be increase con to 16 (so you get the maximum +2 hp per level whenever you decide to dual to druid) and set int to 10 (then boost to 11 with tome) if you intend to carry on to bg2.

Maybe drop charisma a bit to do this

But he needs a minimum of 17 to dual, so 16 is the lowest his charisma can go.

It's possible to ditch some Wisdom in favor of more CON, but you'd miss out on some bonus druid spells at higher levels. Maybe lose a point of Dexterity?

These builds are notoriously difficult to pull off, and I think with the strong roll of 92 you can barely allocate them any better than what you already have.

Eudaemonium

Hmmm. I *could* drop a point of DEX, since I can tome it up to 18 and get the same AC bonus as if I were putting it to 19 (-4). Since the next AC bonus is at 21, and I don't think I'd be able to reach that even in BG2, it seems sensible. That way i could raise INT to 10, later 11, which will help for BG2 Illithids. If I go Evil at the end of BG2 then I can end up with a STR of 19 (discounting awesome accessories that could pump it higher regardless), which is where the big damage boost is, or I could go Good and get that extra special WIS (which would put Wisdom at, what, 23? 24?).

So, by the end of BG1 I should have:

STR 16
DEX 18
CON 17
INT 11
WIS 21
Cha 17.

mortality

Why don't you want to RP a low int character? Besides the fact that mindflayers would be rough, when I roleplay I always like playing high wis low int. ADD illiterate Forest Gumps for everyone!

Also, perhaps more importantly, why is beserker better for a druid? Armor?

Dee

mortality said:

Why don't you want to RP a low int character? Besides the fact that mindflayers would be rough, when I roleplay I always like playing high wis low int. ADD illiterate Forest Gumps for everyone!

Also, perhaps more importantly, why is beserker better for a druid? Armor?

I suspect it's because you can rage while wild-shaped.

moopy

@mortality

Mostly the armor, though the berserker rage is also nice.

And at the levels he will be dualing at he won't receive many Kensai benefits.

[Deleted User]

Aosaw said:

mortality said:

Why don't you want to RP a low int character? Besides the fact that mindflayers would be rough, when I roleplay I always like playing high wis low int. ADD illiterate Forest Gumps for everyone!

Also, perhaps more importantly, why is beserker better for a druid? Armor?

I suspect it's because you can rage while wild-shaped.

The rage (with all of its delicious immunities) is probably the biggest factor, though being able to use armor and gauntlets (such as the Gauntlets of Weapon Expertise) is nice too. Kensai/Druids can make up for low AC with Barkskin, but the relatively short duration of the spell makes for lots of re-buffing (though it's not like you're using those spell slots for anything else).

moopy

And barkskin still wont beat Ankheg armor AC of 1

Kensai gets -2AC and no armor. Berserker gets an armor with AC of 1 so it is a 7 AC advantage to the Berserker, and the Berserker gets rage. If you dual at 6 the Kensai only gets +1 to hit and +1 to damage at level 4 (right?) and that is more than made up for by the gauntlets of weapon expertise the Berserker/Druid can wear.

[Deleted User]

moopy said:

And barkskin still wont beat Ankheg armor AC of 1

Kensai gets -2AC and no armor. Berserker gets an armor with AC of 1 so it is a 7 AC advantage to the Berserker, and the Berserker gets rage. If you dual at 6 the Kensai only gets +1 to hit and +1 to damage at level 4 (right?) and that is more than made up for by the gauntlets of weapon expertise the Berserker/Druid can wear.

Kensai gets +2/+2 at level 6, so it's close but a slight advantage to Kensai (which goes out the window in ToB with the Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialization). Higher level Barkskin + Kensai's AC bonus is *close* to having AC 1 from armor, but not quite there.

Really the reason to do Kensai/Druid is for flavor rather than power (and it's the reason I made one).

TJ_Hooker

I thought that your AC in shapeshifted form was set by the kind of creature you are, not by the armour you were wearing before you shifted? If that's the case, I think kensai would actually have better AC, as their +2 AC bonus would still apply while shapeshifted (I think).

mortality

TJ_Hooker said:

I thought that your AC in shapeshifted form was set by the kind of creature you are, not by the armour you were wearing before you shifted? If that's the case, I think kensai would actually have better AC, as their +2 AC bonus would still apply while shapeshifted (I think).

This was my understanding too, would love clarification. Thank you Kaigen for the points above as well...I'm currently having a think on what class to play next.

toanwrath

Eudaemonium said:

Hmmm. I *could* drop a point of DEX, since I can tome it up to 18 and get the same AC bonus as if I were putting it to 19 (-4). Since the next AC bonus is at 21, and I don't think I'd be able to reach that even in BG2, it seems sensible. That way i could raise INT to 10, later 11, which will help for BG2 Illithids. If I go Evil at the end of BG2 then I can end up with a STR of 19 (discounting awesome accessories that could pump it higher regardless), which is where the big damage boost is, or I could go Good and get that extra special WIS (which would put Wisdom at, what, 23? 24?).

So, by the end of BG1 I should have:

STR 16
DEX 18
CON 17
INT 11
WIS 21
Cha 17.

That final stat block with tomes looks pretty good to me. If your strength is bugging you, you can wear gauntlets of Ogre Power, or (if you don't mind being cursed with low intelligence for the remainder of BGEE though not in Bg2 when Illlithids and Ulitharids are issues) put on the belt of 19 strength from Rasaad's quest.

ZanathKariashi

You only need 14 charisma at creation for a druid dual. wisdom is their prime stat and requires 17, but you also need to meet their minimum of 15 charisma.

Dual doesn't explain it very well, but in addition to matching the prime reqs for a class, you still need to meet any other minimum stat requirements a class has. For the Basic archetypes, fighter, thief, mage, cleric, they only have one required stat, but druids or specialist mages have 2ndry minimum requirements.

Only the new classes prime req requires 17.

Fenghoang

I think your second stat distribution is probably as good as it gets.

Keep in mind that if you're exporting to BG2, that you're forced to sacrifice 1 dex for the hell trials in order to keep your alignment (unless you cheese it =P ). That penalty could be nullified by the machine in the Watcher's Keep though. On the other hand, 11 int is the optimal stat for the illithid sections.

Sidenote: rolling for dualclassing fighters is such a PITA... =(

TJ_Hooker

@mortality I just tested it out ingame, and yup, that's how it works. What armour you're wearing makes no difference, but you do still get the +2 AC kensai bonus when in shapeshifted form.

TJ_Hooker

@ZanathKariashi you need 17 charisma to dual to a druid, at least in BG.

ZanathKariashi

that's a bug then, I'll check when I get in. Reasonably sure it works properly in BG1 at least, original, since it works properly for dualing into a specialist.

mortality

TJ_Hooker said:

@mortality I just tested it out ingame, and yup, that's how it works. What armour you're wearing makes no difference, but you do still get the +2 AC kensai bonus when in shapeshifted form.

Thanks! So it comes down to rage vs 2AC then. Ultimately I still think barb wins but that's definitely good to know.

Eudaemonium

Fenghoang said:

I think your second stat distribution is probably as good as it gets.

Keep in mind that if you're exporting to BG2, that you're forced to sacrifice 1 dex for the hell trials in order to keep your alignment (unless you cheese it =P ). That penalty could be nullified by the machine in the Watcher's Keep though. On the other hand, 11 int is the optimal stat for the illithid sections.

Rolling for dualclassing fighters is such a PITA...

Yeah, but do I really need to keep my alignment? Druids don't fall, do they?

So I started. Picked up Xzar and Monty and Khalid and Jaheira and set off for Nashkel. First map after FAI they start killing each other!! Bit soon, I think. =/

Ended up being Charname, Imoen and Neera making a mad dash to Nashkel to unstone Branwen.

TJ_Hooker

ZanathKariashi said:

that's a bug then, I'll check when I get in. Reasonably sure it works properly in BG1 at least, original, since it works properly for dualing into a specialist.

Nah, you need 17 CHA to dual class to a druid in vanilla as well.

Fenghoang

Eudaemonium said:

Yeah, but do I really need to keep my alignment? Druids don't fall, do they?

So I started. Picked up Xzar and Monty and Khalid and Jaheira and set off for Nashkel. First map after FAI they start killing each other!! Bit soon, I think. =/

Ended up being Charname, Imoen and Neera making a mad dash to Nashkel to unstone Branwen.

Nope, not really. Just figured you might care since you're rolling the char for RP reasons =P

FinneousPJ

Do you really need 21 WIS by the end game? You could start with a fairly low WIS and rely on the tomes to multiclass.

[Deleted User]

FinneousPJ said:

Do you really need 21 WIS by the end game? You could start with a fairly low WIS and rely on the tomes to multiclass.

You don't *need* 21 Wis, but as I point out above, 21 Wis gives you an extra 5th level spell. Considering that's where Druids get Ironskins and Insect Plague, having that bonus spell is *really nice*.

toanwrath

Eudaemonium said:

Fenghoang said:

I think your second stat distribution is probably as good as it gets.

Keep in mind that if you're exporting to BG2, that you're forced to sacrifice 1 dex for the hell trials in order to keep your alignment (unless you cheese it =P ). That penalty could be nullified by the machine in the Watcher's Keep though. On the other hand, 11 int is the optimal stat for the illithid sections.

Rolling for dualclassing fighters is such a PITA...

Yeah, but do I really need to keep my alignment? Druids don't fall, do they?

So I started. Picked up Xzar and Monty and Khalid and Jaheira and set off for Nashkel. First map after FAI they start killing each other!! Bit soon, I think. =/

Ended up being Charname, Imoen and Neera making a mad dash to Nashkel to unstone Branwen.

My most recent game I started a berserker (probably wont use him, as I messed up his alignment). Picked up the same group, but then Montaron decided to walk up to hobgoblins while I was in the other room and forgot to pause (don't ask me how, AI is weird) and managed to get killed. Soon after, I felt it fitting that Xzar charged said hobgoblins with dagger prepared, and met his untimely demise. Jaheria died getting Neera, and Khalid died in the Red Sheaf from the dwarf mercenary/assassin. Maybe they aren't meant to work well with fighters who wish they could be Druids?

wild

Out of interest what was your rp reason for a kensai druid. I am also running a kensai with the intention to dual to a druid at some point probably in BG2EE with a storyline something along the lines of this.

True neutral kensai- only thing that matters is their ability with a sword not going to pick up gold or gems themself improvement their sole purpose in life. Becomes infected with lycanthropy and decides to master this new ability when they become aware of it.

Will requires a fair bit of tweaking with shadowkeeper as I can't just change the kit so I will have to remove the regular druid shapes and gradually add the werewolf.

TJ_Hooker

I just found out that while you don't keep the base AC of the armour you're wearing when you shapeshift (your base armour is set by whatever form you're in), you do keep the armour modifiers. Meaning that if you have full plate equipped before you shapeshift, you'll keep the -3 vs piercing, -4 vs slashing.

So I've come to the conclusion that Berserker is better than Kensai for dualing to a druid. The +2 to hit and damage you'll get from dualing from a kensai at level 6 can be offset by a berserker wearing gauntlets of weapon specialization and balduran's helm. The kensai's +2 armour bonus can partially be offset by the +1AC from baldurans helm, can be offset and then some if you equip a shield (you keep your shield bonus in shapeshifted form), as well as the armour modifiers mentioned above. So the only thing they're missing is Kai, which I think Berserk more than makes up for.

Also, on a side note, if you have a weapon in your off hand, you get an extra attack per round even while shapeshifted.

Debaser

@TJ_Hooker @Eudaemonium - I agree that Berserker is better / more flexible as a class. Maybe nature is where you seek solace and a path to quell your inner anger?


STR 18 (Bump to 19 with tome)
DEX 9 (Bump to 18 with DEX Gaunts)
CON 18 (Give yourself the Klaw of Kazaroth after you dual to Druid and still reap HP bonuses)
INT 11 (For mind flayers in BG2)
WIS 18 (And give yourself the tomes to get to 21)
CHA 18 (Might as well go to 18 Charisma with a tome)

You can keep your Strength, Constitution, and Intelligence tomes free for your party this way.

For weapons I'd maybe go:

++Staff
++Two-Handed Weapon Style

And try to grandmaster Staves with the dualing exploit if you you're not going to wait until BG2 to dual class.

Fardragon

Beserker/Druid is an ideal fit for a Malarite druid.

However, I don't believe you can dual class with a Str of 10. Must be at least 15. The stat requirments for this combo are horrible. Might consider making Dex a dump stat and wearing the gloves.

Debaser

Fardragon said:

Beserker/Druid is an ideal fit for a Malarite druid.

However, I don't believe you can dual class with a Str of 10. Must be at least 15. The stat requirments for this combo are horrible. Might consider making Dex a dump stat and wearing the gloves.

SHOOT! you are right...best swap STR and DEX then.