Improved Offhand Daggers

Madhax

This should be a simple enough addition. A dagger in the offhand is a traditional weapon choice based on real-life use, and is pretty cool RP-wise as well. Unfortunately, unless I'm mistaken, there aren't any daggers that really lend themselves to being dual-wielded currently in the BG series. Sure, they can be effective in the offhand, but none have the power of wielding Crom Faeyr, Belm, or the Equalizer in a character's off hand.

What I'd like added is simple: A handful of new magical daggers that grant either AC bonuses (Parrying daggers) or attack bonuses like the aforementioned notable weapons. A dagger that's literally just a copy of Belm but smaller would be a good start.

Here's an example from IWD 2 (Obviously the stats are 3E and don't translate, but you get the idea):

"Baron" Sulo's Hook

STATISTICS:

Damage: 1d4 + 1
Attack Bonus: -1 penalty
Enchantment: +1
Damage Type: Piercing
Special:
Deflection Bonus: +3
Saving Throw: +1 bonus
Resistance: 5/- Magic Resistance
Weight: 1 lb.
Feat Requirement: Simple Weapon, Small Blade
Type: One-handed

TJ_Hooker

Yeah I remember that dagger from IWD2. It's not as good as it looks, as by the time you can get it pretty much all your character will already have +2 deflection bonus from items of protection, so you only get a net +1 AC from using it.

Madhax

TJ_Hooker said:

Yeah I remember that dagger from IWD2. It's not as good as it looks, as by the time you can get it pretty much all your character will already have +2 deflection bonus from items of protection, so you only get a net +1 AC from using it.

Yeah, it's not a great dagger due to the way AC works in third edition. I like the idea of a weapon like that, though: In theory, it provides sizable defensive bonuses in the form of a weapon, offset by mediocre offensive stats.

Pantalion

Since it's arguably modelled with a Defender enhancement - which is an enhancement bonus and would inherently stack with rings - if translated into 2e it should arguably perform much the same as Drizzt's sword does and just be a flat bonus.

I'd personally enjoy a lot more tactical variety along this bent, though not necessarily restricted to daggers. A buckler that grants as extra attack, a dagger that grants haste when wielded, a short sword that gives its enhancement bonus to your THAC0 with your main hand and so on would make combat a great deal more interesting and mediocre weapon choices more viable.

Feather

The offensive variant could be something like Montolio's Cloak: (http://www.gamebanshee.com/showshot.php?/baldursgateii/equipment/images/montolioscloak.jpg) in a weapon form, adding thaco to the offhand weapon (don't know if you can tweak that so that it only adds that while being worn offhand itself)

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

Oxford_Guy

I'd also like to see +1 throwing daggers in BGEE akin to the Bereul's retort ones

moopy

Also a speed weapon dagger.

Nifft

Bhaaldog said:

There appears to be demand for additional returnable throwing daggers as well, which would be an interesting option for BG2 EE.

I would like to second this demand.

Some kind of returning dart, too.

Kirkor

Yes, show daggers some love.

I hope that developers now will make alot of new content and DLCs. Now that they don't have to screw around with clearing the engine (which probably took most of their time), they can easily add some new, cool stuff... At least I hope they will...

Nifft

Hmm, thinking about this, the main use for an off-hand weapon in fencing was always defense. But that's also what shields do, so we'd need to distinguish shield use from off-hand weapon use. The "Sword and Shield" style already does this to a degree, since protection from missile weapons is a very shield thing, and not an off-hand dueling thing at all.

If we were able to change what the weapon styles did, we could do something like:

Single Weapon Style
* +1 to hit
** +1 to hit, -1 to AC, Crit on 19-20

Two Weapon Fighting
* -1 to AC vs. melee attacks
** -2 to AC vs. melee attacks, melee attackers slowed by -1/2 attack per round (minimum 1)
*** -3 to AC vs. melee attacks, melee attackers slowed by -1 attack per round (minimum 1)

Under this modification, TWF would have the same relative effect that it has now -- a guy with high TWF will have more melee attacks than his opponent -- but with a bit less of the cheesy stuff. Also, it's vastly different than Shields, and might be less useful against a one-hit bruiser (Ogre Berserker), but superior against an attack-spammer (Sword Spider).

Then, throw in some daggers which have special effects when they're equipped in your off-hand, and we'd be golden.

jethro

I think @Niftt has a good idea, but I think a flat +1 AC bonus for all daggers and short swords when equipped in the offhand, with maybe a +1 bonus to the main hand weapon for daggers, would be a fantastic way to make them both usable. As a bonus unique to the weapon it makes the decision to use a dagger or a larger weapon that much harder - do you go damage or defense?

jethro

Ok, thinking on it some more, I'd propose this:

TWF Style
* no change
** add -1 AC bonus for daggers or short swords in off hand
*** remove off hand penalty for daggers and short swords

The result is a defense that's not as good as a shield, but better than any other weapon (minus Defender) and better offense for weapons designed for dual-wielding. Plus it's a very small change that shouldn't alter game balance much, if at all, and might scale well into BG2. You will still do much greater damage dualing larger weapons, but it makes smaller weapons very viable.

@Nifft idea is really a great way to go about the changes I think, and I hope I'm adding to it well!

Nifft

@jethro - Are you granting both an offensive and a defensive effect?

I probably didn't say it very clearly above, but in my version of TWF, you would not get any bonus attacks. Instead, you'd reduce the number of melee attacks each opponent made. Is yours the same, or do you grant a bonus attack?

jethro

@Nifft - Ah! I can see your confusion..

Using this:

jethro said:

TWF Style
* no change
** add -1 AC bonus for daggers or short swords in off hand
*** remove off hand penalty for daggers and short swords

I'd keep all the original TWF bonuses and effects. So I guess if I re-wrote the whole thing it'd look like this:

TWF Style
* -2 penalty to Main Hand, -6 penalty to Off Hand (this is just like BG:EE already has)
** 0 penalty to Main Hand, -4 penalty to Off Hand, -1 AC Bonus for Dagger or Short Sword equipped in Off Hand
*** 0 penalty to Main Hand, -2 penalty to Off Hand, 0 penalty to Off Hand if Dagger or Short Sword is equipped there

So in answer, YES there is an offensive and defensive effect, but unlike your suggestion there are no additional (or fewer) APR granted (or removed). It mostly provides a small bonus to Daggers and Short Swords, which would make those weapons more playable, even for heavy Meta Gamers. For me that's the ultimate point, that daggers and short swords aren't viable weapons for fighters - and that seems wrong to my ascetic sense.

I think that your idea addresses the problem in a way I hadn't thought of, but I just feel it's much too strong. Also I'm a little confused about the implementation and effect: What do you do to the penalties for dual-wielding? Does the negative APR just affect the guy you're trying to hit or all the enemies next to you? How does dual-wielding slow someone else down? It was really the AC bonuses that caught my eye to be honest...

Nifft

@jethro - In fencing, the off-hand weapon is used to catch, push away, and otherwise block your opponent's attacks. This means fewer attacks: either you catch his weapon (so he can't attack with it until he regains control), or he's more careful about his maneuvers (so he makes fewer attacks).

The APR penalty should affect everyone who attacks you in melee.

It's strong, but I don't think it's stronger than Sword & Shield Style (which gives a +4 AC bonus vs. missiles, plus what the shield provides). S&S Style ** with a Large shield gives you a +6 AC vs. missiles over TWF; TWF *** gives you a +2 AC bonus vs. melee and slows melee attackers. It's only a +2 bonus because the shield would have given you at least a +1 AC vs. melee attackers, and you paid 3 pips for TWF instead of two pips for S&S... yeah, I think it balances out.

- - -

Anyway, about your idea: how will you make daggers & short swords as attractive as something like Crom Faer? If the only difference is the AC and attack bonus, I think a lot of people are going to prefer having 25 Str, and then we're back where we started.

Are you planning on making ONLY daggers & short swords usable in the off hand?

jethro

@Nifft - I understand a little better now where you're coming from. I think there's the idea of fencing vs. two weapon attacking to balance, but i hear you. Perhaps that'd be a great Fighter Kit to make...the Fencer! I think most people think of two weapon style and imagine Optimus Prime as much as a Fencer style attack (I know Optimus is a lame example, but it came to mind , perhaps Drizzt is better?)...

I can't really disagree with the APR penalty part (though it's better as a kit, imo), you make a great point there. Although I have to wonder if the off hand weapon can attack in that case, since it's just as restrained as the opponents weapon...basically it's a shield in that case.

---

My idea isn't to make daggers and SS better than Crom Faer necessarilly, just an attractive option. Right now there's ZERO incentive to use a dagger or SS as the off hand weapon, even though the reality would be that those are the MOST attractive in the real world. I just think a extra bonus for daggers and SS would make them more attractive as the off hand weapon...a small AC bonus and attack bonus are reasonable for the inferior damage output but better use since they're smaller. If someone wants to dual with a pair of Axes, Flails, Longswords, etc. I say go for it! It's all about choices anyway (that's whats so fun right?!) so I want more choices available. Right now it seems like you give a sweet dagger or SS to a mage who'll never use it (certainly not effectively) instead of putting it in the hands of a professional. I think a small change like I propose would make it a realistic option for even a fighter to consider mastering.

And no i don't want only daggers and SS to be the only options for off hand use...just a more attractive one than currently configured...

Man i REALLY wish I knew how to make a mod :P

jethro

The Fencer: Cannot put pips in Two Handed Weapons or Sword and Shield. Can't put pips in Ranged weapons beyond proficiency. Daggers and SS equiped in off hand provides -2 AC bonus and +1 APR for Main Hand.

...or something like that

Dee

Or a kit that lets you benefit from Single Weapon Style when wielding a dagger in your off-hand. That would net you a total of +2 AC and a 19-20 crit range, demonstrate your focus on using a small off-hand weapon, and also lets you benefit from Two Weapon Style if that's what you choose to focus on.

Nifft

jethro said:

@Nifft - I understand a little better now where you're coming from. I think there's the idea of fencing vs. two weapon attacking to balance, but i hear you. Perhaps that'd be a great Fighter Kit to make...the Fencer!

NO. Dueling via two-weapon fighting is 100% in-genre for:
- Swashbucklers
- Bards (especially Blades)
- Assassins (in real life, the "career duelist" was basically an aristocratic assassin)
- some Fighters
- some Rangers
- maybe even some Paladins ("Our soldiers need not die this day! Send out your champion, and I will face him myself in personal combat!")

Making it into a kit would KILL the idea that it's a fighting style.

jethro said:

My idea isn't to make daggers and SS better than Crom Faer necessarilly, just an attractive option. Right now there's ZERO incentive to use a dagger or SS as the off hand weapon, even though the reality would be that those are the MOST attractive in the real world.

I see where you're coming from. Yeah, if you're okay with the fact that a power-gamer will prefer the Crom Faer to a dagger, then what you are proposing will work.

Cheers! -- N