Pure Wiz vs Fighter1/Wiz

Puma_SPNKr

So after not playing BG for a good year, I bought BG:EE.

Rolled an Elven Wizard (High dex/int) with the intention of using it's bow bonus. ... When I got to allocating pips I realized I couldn't use bows. Pretty bummed, I went for Slings. I knew I could do so in BG2 but went on. (that's what I thought at the time)

Yesterday, half way through the campaign I realize that I could dual a fighter at 1 (i think you can at 1) to a wiz, to get to use a bow. But I'll lose the Elven bonus to bows (only humans can dual, i believe).

So I would like some opinions on my next charname.

Think a fighter1/wizard would be more efficient than a pure wizard?

I know much about the game but I'm not exactly a guru. Would there be any bonuses I might be missing with either?

Anyone have any better alternatives?

Sidekick

Sadly there is no great way to get a bow on your wiz. Like you said, if you dual you will lose the racial bonus. I have had a decent amount of success using darts on a wiz, but there are drawbacks and I really only did it because I couldn't use a bow

Sorry, but there's really not much to be done about it.

Dee

Well, consider this:

As a level 1 fighter, you can specialize in bows--which means that you get +1 attack, +2 damage, and an additional 1/2 per round. This is better than the +1 THAC0 bonus you get from being an elf.

I say go for it. You can also pick up Single Weapon Style or specialize in Quarterstaves, which will make you more formidable as a mage anyway. You don't lose enough XP for it to make a marked difference on your arcane development, either.

Puma_SPNKr

Good idea actually.

I just like elves. I think i'll go with your idea, just sucks to lose the racial bonuses like immunities.

Another question/comment: Why would a mage put pips into any melee weapon outside of complete last resort? For solo purposes?

For instance, Xzar has a proficiency in daggers. When he runs out of spells, he's 100% useless to me. He obviously can't be in the fray, and his THAC0 with a sling is 24. -_-". Useless i say, useless.

I can see the use in solo, as it's considered a little cheesy to keep backtracking and shooting arrows. But part of group play, anything outside of ranged weapons seems like a dire mistake to me.

Dee

Well, there are a few reasons.

First, with dagger proficiency you can use throwing daggers, which are a nice ranged weapon (albeit heavy). In BG2 there's a couple throwing daggers that return, which means you don't need to carry a thousand of them.

And then there are some melee weapons that only mages will find useful, such as the Staff of Rynn +4 in BG2 (an early-game purchase that will make it so that your mage can hit anything effectively).

Puma_SPNKr

Oh, and as for an archer:

Does the archer +1 to ranged weapons every 3 levels start on level 1 or level 3?

And if it's level 1, can I dual an Archer 1 to a Wizard for an additional +1 to bows?

DinsdalePiranha

there is no such thing as fighter 1 dual... however, you can dual at lvl 3, getting mastery, which give you +3 thac0 +3 dmg (compared to specialization's +1 thac0 +2 dmg), and get another star in it for +1 dmg at mage lvl 6.

the only problem with that? you'll be a generalist wizard (you can't dual to specialist), and compared to specialists, they suck balls. it's okay, but not great - generally, if you want to be an awesome arcane caster, either specialization or sorcerer is the way to go. but dualing at lvl 3 is the closest to what you want, the only other alternative is fighter/mage elven multi, which also gets an extra half attack at fighter 7, but has suckier damage and arcane repertoire. (and gets owned by Coran)

as for Xzar and mages in general... give him a sling, or better yet, nonmagical darts until lvl 6 (3 attacks per round means 3 chances to crit), then become proficient with darts, buy High Hedge's stock of magical darts, and instantly turn into a destroyer of worlds

TJ_Hooker

You have to be at least level 2 to dual class. Personally I'd wait till at least level 3. At that point, you'll have a base THAC0 of 18, which is better than a mage will have for a while, essentially giving you a +1 to hit with all weapons compared to a single class mage, until you hit mage level 7. You'll also have the specialization bonus @Aosaw mentioned.

Puma_SPNKr said:

For instance, Xzar has a proficiency in daggers. When he runs out of spells, he's 100% useless to me. He obviously can't be in the fray, and his THAC0 with a sling is 24. -_-". Useless i say, useless.

Just use throwing daggers. Dagger is actually a decent proficiency for a mage, as it makes them proficient in a melee and ranged weapon at once. They can get pretty heavy, so you'll probably need another, stronger character, to help him hold them if you want to have a decent supply though. Once you start getting some good equipment and some spending money, they'll get less useful, as you'll want to be using magic weapons and there aren't any magic throwing daggers in BG1. Hopefully by that time you'll have gained a second proficiency point, which you can put in darts or slings.

Edit: looks like I got ninja'd on both points here.

Puma_SPNKr

Aosaw said:

Well, there are a few reasons.

First, with dagger proficiency you can use throwing daggers, which are a nice ranged weapon (albeit heavy). In BG2 there's a couple throwing daggers that return, which means you don't need to carry a thousand of them.

And then there are some melee weapons that only mages will find useful, such as the Staff of Rynn +4 in BG2 (an early-game purchase that will make it so that your mage can hit anything effectively).

I see your point now.

I've always used Slings in BG1 for my Wiz. In your opinion, you think throwing daggers maybe more efficient? Although I hardly use them, there are many different bullet types I come across that can supplement my +1 sling. (+x bullets, elemental) Maybe it's just me but i never run into any decent throwing daggers, unless i come across those few in BG2... And even if i did, those 20 +1 daggers would be gone fast, as opposed to a sling that would give at least a +1 to every bullet plain bullet used ( only +1 to THAC0, I know), and more utility, right?

And would a +4 staff really justify throwing a wiz into anyone's face?

The only reason I get a wiz close is to interrupt enemy wizards with a casting time 1 spell.

Maybe I just dunno how to manipulate spells correctly yet but until I can buff with protection of magical/normal weapons I just feel like a wizard is just an easy target for any melee/ranged attacker.

TJ_Hooker

Puma_SPNKr said:

Oh, and as for an archer:

Does the archer +1 to ranged weapons every 3 levels start on level 1 or level 3?

The archer bonuses to hit and damage only start at level 3.

Edited for clarity

Puma_SPNKr

So um, can you dual an archer at 3 to wizard? And if so, would that provide an additional bonus to bows?

Dee

Once you learn Stoneskin, you stop having to worry so much about running into melee when necessary, at which point equipping a +4 staff is definitely preferable to standing back with a +1 sling.

That's provided you have a Strength score capable of boosting your THAC0, though, or spells/items that give you such a thing. The +4 THAC0 from the staff itself is nice, but it's not as useful when your Strength is 9.

TJ_Hooker

Puma_SPNKr said:

So um, can you dual an archer at 3 to wizard? And if so, would that provide an additional bonus to bows?

No, the only dual class you can do with an archer, or any ranger, is to a cleric. Every dual class combination must also be a valid multiclass combination. If you look at the list of multiclasses, you can see what combinations are available.

Puma_SPNKr

Ahh, nice. Thank you sir.

Puma_SPNKr

Aosaw said:

Once you learn Stoneskin, you stop having to worry so much about running into melee when necessary, at which point equipping a +4 staff is definitely preferable to standing back with a +1 sling.

That's provided you have a Strength score capable of boosting your THAC0, though, or spells/items that give you such a thing. The +4 THAC0 from the staff itself is nice, but it's not as useful when your Strength is 9.

Thanks for the input. I'm a little bit more knowledgable now.

ZanathKariashi

Well...technically...if dual-classing was properly implemented, you COULD dual an Archer into a Mage (or even dual-class up to 4 times, 1 of each archetype pool, if you had the stats for it)...but..bioware was lazy, so that's out.

Darts are the best weapon for a mage. Though they can be a little annoying to use, 3 attacks per round and basically no weight is pure win. Throwing daggers only get 2 attacks, and weigh more...though in BG2 there's several returning daggers, while only 1 returning dart.

Also, depending on which version you're using, some game mechanics change a lot. In BG1, most throwing axes, throwing daggers, slings and darts use your strength bonus. 2 bows also did, but were due to a bug. In BG2, throwing axes/knives/hammers get your str bonus, but only plain darts and darts +1 get a str bonus, the rest don't. 2 Slings get a str bonus, and no bows do. In BG:EE currently only throwing Axes get a strength bonus...

And lastly, if you play PnP, all hurled weapons (thrown axes/daggers/hammers, darts) gain a strength bonus, as well as some specially crafted bows (any bow with a str requirement of 16 or above is supposed to apply the appropriate str contribution for that strength to damage, in BG1 and EE this is done correctly for composite bows (18 str would apply +2 damage per shot)...in BG2 however....it's not (only applying +1 base), and a bow requiring 19 str, like Strong Arm+2 should be applying 7 damage +2 from enhancement for a total of +9)

Puma_SPNKr

Well as a fighter dual wiz, i wouldn't intend on using much of a strength bonus. I'd be using the dex, as i'm planning in using him exclusively as a wizard, just with a bow for when spells are low or are not useful for the situation.

moopy

I personally wouldn't mess with it unless I was going to go 7 fighter / 8 wizard.

If you want the 5th level spells I'd still go fighter 3 / wizard 9

Oxford_Guy

Puma_SPNKr said:

Well as a fighter dual wiz, i wouldn't intend on using much of a strength bonus. I'd be using the dex, as i'm planning in using him exclusively as a wizard, just with a bow for when spells are low or are not useful for the situation.

A Bard could could fill that role too...

Kampri

On a related thought, if you switch to human you lose the other racial bonuses of Elves. I'm assuming BGEE uses the resistance to charm and sleep spells for Elves?

Puma_SPNKr

Oxford_Guy said:

Puma_SPNKr said:

Well as a fighter dual wiz, i wouldn't intend on using much of a strength bonus. I'd be using the dex, as i'm planning in using him exclusively as a wizard, just with a bow for when spells are low or are not useful for the situation.

A Bard could could fill that role too...

Excuse my ignorance but does a bard's spells progress the same as a mage's?

Puma_SPNKr

Kampri said:

On a related thought, if you switch to human you lose the other racial bonuses of Elves. I'm assuming BGEE uses the resistance to charm and sleep spells for Elves?

Yes, according to their in-game description.

Oxford_Guy

Puma_SPNKr said:

Oxford_Guy said:

Puma_SPNKr said:

Well as a fighter dual wiz, i wouldn't intend on using much of a strength bonus. I'd be using the dex, as i'm planning in using him exclusively as a wizard, just with a bow for when spells are low or are not useful for the situation.

A Bard could could fill that role too...

Excuse my ignorance but does a bard's spells progress the same as a mage's?

Not far off, they don't start until level 2, but a bard levels up very quickly (which has the added benefit of giving a high caster level, useful for many spells including Spook, Magic Missile, Chromatic Orb etc.). A Bard will reach level 10 in BGEE before the XP cap is reached, which gives the following level 1 - 4 spells: 3 / 3 / 2 / 1

See: http://playithardcore.com/pihwiki/index.php?title=Baldur's_Gate:_Progression_Charts#Bard

In BG2 the max spell level a Bard can reach is Level 6, but they get Thief HLAs at 3 million XP, which are fun (e.g. Use any item...) and a great stronghold quest.

On the downside a bard cannot wear robes (until UAI in BG2 anyway) nor some other mage-specific items, but you can either sell these for lots of gold to give you money for buying/recharging wands and amulets or give them to a mage NPC who csn use them.

BTW There *is* some armour a bard can wear *and* cast spells in, but only if you have a certain NPC in your party, and then quite late. There are other items (and spells) that you can use as a Bard that will help with AC, though).

MB: There is one Bard-specific magic item in BGEE, but quite a few more in BG2.

I'm having lots of fun with a neutral evil (gotta love the Dust Mephit familiar!) Jester duo run (with just Safana) at the moment - Invisibility + Jester song = lots of confused enemies :-)