BG2/ToB - Advanced Tactics and Theories Discussion
Lord_Tansheron
Member Posts: 4,212
Since this is one of the last forums that has an active BG discussion going on, and my interest in the series has been renewed with the release of the EE, there's a few issues I've never really gotten a chance to discuss in-depth. Maybe now is the time to pick up on them again!
First, a caveat: my main interest is power-gaming in a modded world. I believe that it's up to everyone individually to set the boundaries of what they do and what they aim for, and mine are at the higher end of the spectrum, i.e. Ascension and Tactics mod, on Insane difficulty. I do follow the game rules in most respects however, so no "cheats" like multi-class kits and the likes.
Issue #1 - Optimal Party Size
I've long pondered this one. After a few runs, I've ended up going with a party of four most of the time, meaning I reach VERY high levels at the end of ToB (no XP cap, of course). But this got me thinking: since enemies do not actually scale with larger parties, isn't it always the best to have a full party, assuming you want to maximize your damage? Or is there a certain point where the missing levels from having to spread XP around too much are actually detrimental to the overall equation?
Issue #2 - Thieves
I can't really find a good way to use thieves. You definitely want them for traps and backstabs (which help a lot on stuff like improved fire giants), but what class or what combination is best to bring for that? I used to go with Kensai 13 -> Thief for maximum backstabs, but lately I've been wondering whether you actually want a thief gaining levels in the end. The biggest issue there is of course traps - but on some of the hardest fights, I find using them is not very effective, meaning fighter HLAs combined with better THAC0/HP progression could win out. I am considering Assassin 13 -> Fighter, or even Assassin 17 -> Fighter, but I'm not sure if it's viable and/or worth losing the UAI HLA (do you even need that?).
Issue #3 - Mages
I'm also unsure about the number of mages to bring. Given that most of the difficult fights involve immunity to Time Stop as well as a lot of incidental damage, I am reluctant to bring pure casters (Sorcerers); that means dualing fighters (Kensais) to mages for the HP bonus and combat ability, but how many? There is only one Robe of Vecna and Amulet of Power after all... Then again, mages are very flexible and at high levels offer a LOT of damage potential, so you might want to bring many. But how many? Two? Three? Four even?
Issue #4 - Inquisitor (or Anti-Paladin)
The innate Dispel Magic ability brought by these kits is a lvl 0 spell - meaning it can bypass level-immunities on some of the toughest enemies (Liches, Demogorgon). Additionally, the dispel is cast at TWICE the caster level, meaning fairly high success rates. On the other hand, though, you can't dual-class an Inquisitor and it can't reach grandmaster proficiency. The Anti-Paladin can do both, but I'm thinking that it might be too cheesy and broken in its current form (Tactics mod). Still, dispelling protections is something that I've personally found to be one of the biggest issues in hard fights, so I'm not sure what to do about it exactly.
Issue #5 - Weapons
The best weapon combinations, in my opinion, are FoA+5/Crom Faeyr (on a Cleric/Ranger multi), CF+5/Belm (on a Kensai/Mage), and Sanchuudoku+4/Kundane (on another Kensai/Mage), as well as the Staff of the Ram/Staff of the Magi combo on a (backstabbing) Thief. That is four characters - so what to do about the others? The only other +APR melee weapon is Scarlet Ninja-to, but that would require a Rogue with UAI to use. There's also Carsomyr, but that requires a Paladin (or UAI) and can't benefit from a +APR offhand. So what to do about the other party members (if any, see #2)? What are the other really good weapon combinations? Daystar+4/The Answerer? Other longswords maybe (Angurvadal? The Equalizer?)?
There's also a plethora of other, minor issues, but I think we should see if there can be a discussion started first, and then we can expand. So, if you're an experienced ToB powergamer, I'd very much appreciate your input! Of course, also feel free to post YOUR issues here, so we can discuss them and help each other out!
First, a caveat: my main interest is power-gaming in a modded world. I believe that it's up to everyone individually to set the boundaries of what they do and what they aim for, and mine are at the higher end of the spectrum, i.e. Ascension and Tactics mod, on Insane difficulty. I do follow the game rules in most respects however, so no "cheats" like multi-class kits and the likes.
Issue #1 - Optimal Party Size
I've long pondered this one. After a few runs, I've ended up going with a party of four most of the time, meaning I reach VERY high levels at the end of ToB (no XP cap, of course). But this got me thinking: since enemies do not actually scale with larger parties, isn't it always the best to have a full party, assuming you want to maximize your damage? Or is there a certain point where the missing levels from having to spread XP around too much are actually detrimental to the overall equation?
Issue #2 - Thieves
I can't really find a good way to use thieves. You definitely want them for traps and backstabs (which help a lot on stuff like improved fire giants), but what class or what combination is best to bring for that? I used to go with Kensai 13 -> Thief for maximum backstabs, but lately I've been wondering whether you actually want a thief gaining levels in the end. The biggest issue there is of course traps - but on some of the hardest fights, I find using them is not very effective, meaning fighter HLAs combined with better THAC0/HP progression could win out. I am considering Assassin 13 -> Fighter, or even Assassin 17 -> Fighter, but I'm not sure if it's viable and/or worth losing the UAI HLA (do you even need that?).
Issue #3 - Mages
I'm also unsure about the number of mages to bring. Given that most of the difficult fights involve immunity to Time Stop as well as a lot of incidental damage, I am reluctant to bring pure casters (Sorcerers); that means dualing fighters (Kensais) to mages for the HP bonus and combat ability, but how many? There is only one Robe of Vecna and Amulet of Power after all... Then again, mages are very flexible and at high levels offer a LOT of damage potential, so you might want to bring many. But how many? Two? Three? Four even?
Issue #4 - Inquisitor (or Anti-Paladin)
The innate Dispel Magic ability brought by these kits is a lvl 0 spell - meaning it can bypass level-immunities on some of the toughest enemies (Liches, Demogorgon). Additionally, the dispel is cast at TWICE the caster level, meaning fairly high success rates. On the other hand, though, you can't dual-class an Inquisitor and it can't reach grandmaster proficiency. The Anti-Paladin can do both, but I'm thinking that it might be too cheesy and broken in its current form (Tactics mod). Still, dispelling protections is something that I've personally found to be one of the biggest issues in hard fights, so I'm not sure what to do about it exactly.
Issue #5 - Weapons
The best weapon combinations, in my opinion, are FoA+5/Crom Faeyr (on a Cleric/Ranger multi), CF+5/Belm (on a Kensai/Mage), and Sanchuudoku+4/Kundane (on another Kensai/Mage), as well as the Staff of the Ram/Staff of the Magi combo on a (backstabbing) Thief. That is four characters - so what to do about the others? The only other +APR melee weapon is Scarlet Ninja-to, but that would require a Rogue with UAI to use. There's also Carsomyr, but that requires a Paladin (or UAI) and can't benefit from a +APR offhand. So what to do about the other party members (if any, see #2)? What are the other really good weapon combinations? Daystar+4/The Answerer? Other longswords maybe (Angurvadal? The Equalizer?)?
There's also a plethora of other, minor issues, but I think we should see if there can be a discussion started first, and then we can expand. So, if you're an experienced ToB powergamer, I'd very much appreciate your input! Of course, also feel free to post YOUR issues here, so we can discuss them and help each other out!
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Comments
1) A party of 6 will be stronger than 4 at the end game, as there really isn't much difference between a level 30 and 40 character of the same class for example. You have to think about the whole game though, not just how powerful you will be in a few battles at the end. I usually go with 5 through SoA as I always manage to fill all the niches with 5, then sometimes pick up a 6th in ToB.
2) Why not just multi?
3) I usually bring two. Even if enemies have Timestop immunity you can achieve similar results of getting multiple spells off without reply through CC and IA.
4) Don't know what an anti-paladin does so no comment.
5) Crom Faeyr is wasted on any kind of cleric as you can get 25str with a level 2 spell. I don't know about the extra weapons Tactics adds but there are so many great weapons in ToB it's hard to make a bad choice. Carsomyr is overrated - dispel on hit is great except the things you really want to dispel on hit have PfMW and since it's two-handed you can't get your APR as high with Improved Haste.
BGII: Once you hit 2.5 million experience all future party mates show up similarly advanced, and since the cap doesn't apply in normal BGII gameplay, all the extra Exp you'll pick up for getting 2.5m around a sixth of the way into the game (since you get roughly six times the experience), the rest of the game, even in a full party, should get you well past the original SoA experience cap, starting you in good stead for ToB.
ToB: Since you have the vast majority of your characters already, there's no free catchup experience in ToB that I can recall.
It's worth noting that if you park yourself in the right spot in Saradush with infinite ammo and a ranged weapon then the infinite numbers of Fire Giants will raise you to the cap, however large your party is, so a large party works out as simply better.
#2: By being the component in Fighter/Mage/Thieves, in my opinion, F/M/Ts pick up all the skill points you'd need, and in the meantime they're still perfectly capable of slapping on a Improved Haste and Mislead for ten x5 backstabs a round.
#3: Personally I prefer Multiclassing and the much increased numbers of HLAs to Dual classing for a moderate advantage without losing max spell level (Mage HLAs are mediocre, and CL stops scaling at 20 for everything except dispels, so your last few levels as a mage are wasted for a few points of extra damage and a half attack per round from Grand Mastery), but two Mages with level 9 spells (either dualled or multi) and an F/M/T should cover everything.
#4: Can't offer much for this one, I don't do Paladins, nor much miss their absence.
#5: I seem to recall the Defender of Easthaven or some other Morning Star from the bonus merchants gives an undocumented extra attack. This makes it arguably a better choice for your Ranger/Cleric to field. If you're fielding the Inquisitor for the Dispel Magic then you may as well field them with Carsomyr for the sake of it. If you're fielding multiple thieves, you can field one with the Staff of Striking and one with the Staff of the Ram. Axe of the Unyielding is rather underrated as a choice. If you've any non-frontliners, then a Dagger user using Fire Tooth should be hitting multiple times a round with strength bonus, which isn't a bad way to keep someone out of trouble.
Concerning #2: My question remains, do you even want someone leveling as Thief later on? What does that give you? BS multipliers are maxed at 13 (for non-Assassins), and most of the relevant thieving skills will be at a good level, too - so why continue with 1 HP/lvl (compared to 3 from Fighter) and worse THAC0?
I agree that Mislead-Backstab is a valid point; personally, I refuse to use it because it just seems broken, but that's just me. Your argument is definitely valid.
Then again, BS suffers from the same thing as traps later on - the most dangerous enemies won't be affected. While it's nice to have stuff like BS to advance through certain portions of the game quickly, I don't think traps will actually do anything. That leaves UAI and Assassination, though I'm pretty sure that being immune to backstabs moots that one as well.
I suppose if I know I will have enough XP to max out both (or all three) levels when multi-classed, it's a consideration. But I'm not sure that's going to be the case, barring stuff like infinite-grinding as you mentioned earlier - and frankly, I could just as well SK everyone to maximum then and save going through the motions. Suffice it to say there's no challenge in that, and it's something I personally won't do.
That also matters for #1 - I'm still sketchy on just how much XP is reasonably available (discounting infinite grinds, see above), but I do agree that there is little difference between 30 and 40.
#3: I'm pretty sure that being a Kensai, even a lvl 13 one, will result in more damage than having a few extra fighter levels from being multi. Kai is very powerful, especially during Timestop (where all hits are made automatically).
#4: Without Inquisitor dispels, how to deal with high level improved mages (without game-breaking cheese)? You have to dispel them somehow, since they will often have near-unlimited physical protections and possible immunities to regular dispels (like Liches). Hope to get lucky and sneak hits in between re-casts? Rely on magic entirely, with Lower Resistance (since they're likely to be MR as well)?
Anti-Paladin is a Fighter kit added by Tactics, it's essentially an Inquisitor, except it's a fighter and must be evil. Can't use Paladin gear, but can get grandmastery and can dual-class. Borderline cheese in my opinion, let's leave it out of the discussion for now, unless someone has some personal insights to share from their experience with the kit.
#5 I agree that CF is a bit of a waste, yet there are few other blunt weapons to choose from. I will look into the hidden +APR thing, but it's the first I've ever heard about that. Defender of Easthaven is definitely something I like to carry around, though, if only for the damage resistance.
Axe of the Unyielding is definitely a nice weapon. But what to pair it with? I seem to recall that The Answerer and The Equalizer actually apply their bonuses to mainhand attacks as well while wielded in the off-hand, anyone can corroborate?
As for Fire Tooth, I'm pretty sure that +3 is not enough to hit most relevant enemies at the end of ToB
Thanks for the input so far, keep it coming!
Personnally, i ran tactics+ascension+improved battles+ease of use last time around and soloed with a F/M. Used staff of magi for dispel and staff of ram with gram when i needed to drain certain fire giants to death.
Tbh, when i say i soloed it's questionable, since i found impossible finishing final fight without the aid of planetars, multiple simulacrums etc. If i decide to do that again my opinion is that i would have a party of two, one F/M/T and one Fighter/cleric. FMT with Carsomyr and F/C with staff of power, both dispel on hit and you pretty much have everything imo.
2. A fighter/thief is very powerful - basically as good as a front line fighter (better in some ways with UAI) but with thief skills to boot. However backstab felt pretty underpowered to me by ToB - enemies just have too much health unless you go for serious cheese like mislead or staff of the magi for multiple uncontested backstabs.
3. I think theres only about 3 enemies who are immune to timestop. Demogorgon, Balthazar and Melissan. Mainly however I found my mages to be glorified dispellers. If you use SCS then a lot of opponents will have immunity:abjuration which prevents your inquisitor from dispelling them. Which means you will be using things like spellstrike to bring their defenses down. I found that mage damage (20d6 with save for half = 35 average/round) is fairly unimpressive compared to greater whirlwind (200ish/round with a good weapon).
4. Inquisitors are very powerful. The dispel obviously, but true sight is very handy too. Can't comment on anti-paladins because I've never used that mod. Grandmastery is overrated - 0.5 extra attacks isn't that big a deal.
5. Dual wielding is overrated imho. Anything your fighters can actually hit will get mown down pretty fast anyway - the problems are typically mages with protections that you can't hit. And once you get HLAs the number of attacks per round is irrelevant (GWW). A good shield can prevent a huge amount of damage.
I think the main issue is that if you've decided you want backstabbing and trap-setting, you've more or less committed yourself to making your own thief, since your only other reasonable option for that is Jan, and he isn't a fabulous backstabber. I like the idea of starting thief and dual-classing into Fighter (though I think a spellcaster dual would also work). I was going to make a Bounty Hunter -> Cleric for a while until I just decided to multiclass it.
On dual wielding: the main reason to do it is simply the +APR weapons, which through the way they work add a MH attack. Combined with Improved Haste, the result is 10 APR pretty much sustained, which is better than Greater Whirlwind. The only time GWW comes into play is with FoA+5, because its permanent Free Action effect prevents Haste.
With mods, several more enemies are immune to Timestop, including multiple enemies at once (Eclipse, ToB final battle).