Dual Classing an Archer?
TheCoffeeGod
Member Posts: 618
As I usually play an F/M/T in BG, since I like having the utility of it, I've been adverse to trying out the Kits.
But I decided to play the Black Pits with an Elven Archer and just loved it not to mention having a ton of fun with BP.
So I got really interested in doing an Archer run in BG once the RoF bug gets fixed in the next patch, however I also wanted to dual class at lvl 7 for more utility.
So I started up a human Archer, CTRL+8 the stats, and CLUA my XP up to lvl 7 and clicked dual class to see what was availible.
To my surprise, Cleric is the only thing availible, which made me rather sad.
So I guess what I'm getting at, is there a way to dual class an Archer to Theif?
But I decided to play the Black Pits with an Elven Archer and just loved it not to mention having a ton of fun with BP.
So I got really interested in doing an Archer run in BG once the RoF bug gets fixed in the next patch, however I also wanted to dual class at lvl 7 for more utility.
So I started up a human Archer, CTRL+8 the stats, and CLUA my XP up to lvl 7 and clicked dual class to see what was availible.
To my surprise, Cleric is the only thing availible, which made me rather sad.
So I guess what I'm getting at, is there a way to dual class an Archer to Theif?
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Not that you were trying to do that, Ranger/Thief or Ranger->Thief or Thief->Ranger would be awesome and I wish that were implemented since there is no PnP reason to not be able to I don't think.
I'd rather have Druid/Mage first though.
That would leave only Slings.
Archer to cleric punishes by removing the preferred weapon for a large part of the game (and proficiencies added by the cleric class won't help the archer be a better archer at all). Seems like a silly combo from a gaming standpoint.
Stalker -> Cleric is okay in that you can backstab (albeit with a limited multiplier) with staves and clubs, and you can add those extra spells to your spellbook, but by the time you have both of your classes active again (somewhere just south of 3 million XP), having Haste in your spellbook isn't going to be nearly as impressive as you thought it would be.
As @moopy says, multiclass really is the way to go.
Because of the way BG works, I would think Arcane Archer would have to be implemented as a kit specifcally for the Fighter/Mage multiclass.
MC'ed Cleric/Rangers do get slightly better THAC0 progression up til around the 2M XP mark, but the DC'ed Cleric/Rangers eventually catches up and surpasses the MC'ed counterpart until they cap out at 6 Base THAC0 (around the 5M XP mark). Even then, DC'ed Cleric/Rangers get much better THAC0 when they use Holy Power because their caster levels are way higher.
You end up losing your Warrior HLAs, but IMO, the sacrifice is worth it. You still get plenty of APR with Imp Haste, you have plenty of spells to pick from both the Druid and Cleric HLAs, and GWW is so damn short anyway (1 Round per use D= ).
Back on topic, I do agree with the others though that Archers really shine as a single class, as opposed to a DC. However, if you like slings, they are still very awesome because they can GM in slings and still get both Druid and Cleric spells. Also, ATM, there are two slings (Sling of Seeking and Sling of Everard) in BG2 that uses your Strength bonus - so there's that. I would probably recommend dualing at 9 if you want to make an Archer/Cleric.
EDIT: I just remembered Archers can't go past 2 pips in Sling... D=
And as someone else pointed out, I'd love to see Druid/Mages included.
Ranger/mage would be cool
or a Mage/druid combo
Cause slings aren't really archery.
You sacrifice the ranger HLA (which you mention). This includes Hardiness.
What you don't mention is that with Armor of Faith, Defender of East Haven, AND Hardiness, you are looking at being near immortal with regeneration.
And you gave up being unkillable for a slightly faster spell progression, which would end up with basically all the same spells anyway.
Like I said before, longer spell durations, more skins from iron skins, more potent spell caster levels, acquiring spells faster (usable at earlier stages of the game), better THAC0/bonuses from stat boosters like Holy Power/Draw upon Holy Might, more casts per day, and a reasonably acquirable Cleric Symbol Ring (+1 Str and extra 6th and 7th spell) are all too good to pass up IMO.
Again assuming Lvl 7 Ranger -> Cleric, at the standard SoA XP cap (2.95M), you're talking about a difference of 5 cleric levels. If you're playing with ToB, you'll likely acquire 3.75-4M XP in a full group by the end of SoA and that's a difference of 8-9 cleric levels. If you somehow hit the ToB XP cap, that's 14 levels difference - although 6M is more realistic and that's about 13 levels difference. That isn't insignificant in the slightest.
What that means, ultimately, is that you won't even reach your max effective caster level (20) til the very end of ToB with a MC, while you would probably hit it at around 75% through SoA with a DC. That's the difference of 1-3 extra hits with Iron Skin, 2+ Str/Dex/Con, buff spells lasting 4+ rounds longer, a turn undead that actually is useful/powerful, spell power that's a tier or two stronger, always have access to an entire spell level sphere higher, and can buff anywhere from 1-5 more times a day through over half of your SoA+ToB playthrough.
To put it in better perspective, at the 3M XP mark (when you first start acquiring HLAs), for example, the DC has 8 spell slots in the crucial level 5 spells, as opposed to 3 for the MC. I say crucial because of Magic Resistance, Insect Plague, Chaotic Commands, Iron Skins, Righeous Magic, True Seeing, and Raise Dead (which are all some of, if not the best Druid/Cleric spells). So even if you ignore those, that's still casting iron skins up to 5x more, each with 3 more layers of skin (about 43% more effective per cast). It's even more if you factor in Wonderous Recall - which you can cast up to 6x with the DC as compared to 2x with the MC. On top of that, you get 5% more DR from Armor of Faith, 2 more Str/Dex/Con from DUHM, 7 better THAC0 under Holy Power (not including the bonus from Str via DUHM) - each of which you can cast 3-4x more a day and lasts about 5 rounds longer each. Then factor in the number of times you can cast your other spells (Blade Barrier, Insect Plague, etc.) as opposed to those. To me, that's better than the 40% physical resistance you get from Hardiness and the other warrior HLAs, or at the worst comparable. When you're totally mitigating damage with Iron Skins, the resistance is irrelevant. Even if you're somehow out of skins (so unlikely with all of the casts you can get off with the number of spell slots plus Wonderous Recall casts), 55% DR (Defender of Easthaven + Armor of Faith) is more than enough with your high AC/HP.
You'll experience similar results at the 4M XP mark, except with the added factor of the cleric ring for the DC (which BTW stacks on top of Strength belts if you happen to be using one because of crappy stat rolls). Besides the +1 Str bonus, the DC effectively gets 3 more 7th level spells, 5 more 5th and 6th level spells, 3 more 4th levels spells, 2 more of the others, and still have 4 spell caster levels on the MC.
I'm not trying to say the MC is useless or underpowered (it obviously is very powerful). However, I feel like the DC is objectively better (or at least comparable), and the journey is far more enjoyable and rewarding.
In short, I'm willing to give you comparable, but I'm not willing to give you objectively better.