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The "To Hit roll"...

NocturneNNocturneN Member Posts: 123
in Archive (General Discussion)
Greetings, for all my time playing Baldur's Gate I've never fully understood exacly how it works. Reading the BG readme says:

"X + Y = Z

Where
X = base to hit roll (1-20)
Y = any bonuses/penalties to hit
Z = total to hit roll

Y is the total aggregate value of all bonuses and/or penalties
that are applied to the character's to hit roll. This value
is also usually reflected in the difference between the
character's THACO and base THACO on the character page.
However, certain bonuses or penalties will show in the value Y
that don't show on the THACOs on the Character Record, such as
off handed attack penalties. Also - weapon versus armor type
bonuses and penalties are also applied to Y.


So I ran into two odd situations yesterday, starting out on my new character:

When I attack a Candlekeep Monk or Phlydia, a Watcher etc (for testing purposes only) the roll will display eg "15+3=18: Hit"

So I assume this means the left number is the roll and added are my thac0 bonus which is 17 (20 - 17 = 3)? But then I attacked Shank, one of the assassins in Candlekeep, and for him, the roll displayed "15-5=10: Miss". So what do the negative number imply? Naturally I had an easier time hitting Shank than the others with my missile weapon (+3 thac0) than with my melee weapon (no bonus) - but why the negative number?

Comments

  • IgnatiusIgnatius Member Posts: 624
    Y takes also takes into account the bonuses/penalties of the target.

    The "-5" on Shank's roll probably indicate a defense bonus that you would have against his attack (he wields a dagger).
  • NocturneNNocturneN Member Posts: 123
    edited January 2013
    No, I got it on MY roll. Which is why I found it really wierd. Gonna do some more testing tonight.
  • IgnatiusIgnatius Member Posts: 624
    You got a -5 on your roll to hit Shank? he had an AC of 10 and no armor... did you try to hit him in melee with your range weapon?
  • lunarlunar Member Posts: 3,460
    You were using a bow other ranged weapon? If you use it on someone who is meleeing you, you get a whopping -8 to hit. Thus your natural +3 bonus becomes -5 (3-8=-5) Also Shank did enjoy +4 to his to hit roll since you were not using a suitable melee weapon.
  • NocturneNNocturneN Member Posts: 123
    edited January 2013
    THAT must be it! Aye, I knew about the +4 penalty to AC, but not about the -8 to hit penalty!! Makes perfect sense now!

    The thing is my character has low str (8), so having him and Shank just whack away at eachother in melee took ages... Eventually I switched to the throwing daggers and applied paralyctic toxin, then killed him. I also decided to pickpocket Winthrop until he catched me (with the RR mod, so only -2 rep penalty, no turning hostile hehe), because having access to studded leather right from the getgo felt abit cheesy. I like the challenge. :) Would've obviously gone better if I had known about that penalty, though. ;)

    Amazing that you can still learn new things about this game...I haven't seen this melee/ranged penalty mentioned anywhere, though. I've read all the manuals (I'm using BGT, not EE), though it admittedly was quite a while ago...

    Many thanks, lads!

    Final question:

    Can you see anywhere your enemy's AC in the To Hit Roll? Or do you have to calculate? Thanks again! :)

  • IgnatiusIgnatius Member Posts: 624
    @NocturneN: no you cannot see the ennemy's AC, and the only calculation you can make when you see your roll is that his AC (vs the type of damage you are trying to do) is < or > to such number.
  • IgnatiusIgnatius Member Posts: 624
    But you can see all creatures, items, spells, etc... stats using game editors such as Near Infinity.
  • NocturneNNocturneN Member Posts: 123
    Aye, true, but that's alot of creatures to go through... ;) Feels like I'd need to study the list in order to remember what creature has what AC... but thank you again!
  • NocturneNNocturneN Member Posts: 123
    While we're on the subject of rolls:

    Anyone mind explaining to me how the reaction roll works? I'm asking because I've been through Candlekeep more than a couple of times by now, and everytime I play with an 18cha-char, it seems my reputation is the sole judge of what outcomes I get from the quests.

    With 18 cha and 9/12 reputation, I always get the "friendly" response from Hull and Fuller; Fuller gives me his dagger, Hull compliments me and gives me a few extra gp.

    But whenever I have 7 reputation, I get the 2nd response, i.e. Hull will scorn me and Fuller wont give his dagger. Since the difference between 7 and 9 rep is only -1 reaction for 7, I find it wierd that such a small amount can trigger totally different responses (especially since my char gets +5 Reaction from his 18 CHA!).
  • TJ_HookerTJ_Hooker Member Posts: 2,438
    There's a table on page 19 of the Mastering Melee and Magic game manual that lists the bonus/penalty to reaction due to your reputation. That being said, I may remember hearing somewhere that the values listed there are incorrect.
  • WanderonWanderon Member Posts: 1,418
    The only time you get the dagger from Fuller is with 18 charisma - I don't think rep effects it at all.
  • lunarlunar Member Posts: 3,460
    Reputation and your charisma both affect NPC reactions. The more heroic you are, the less charm you need. And vice versa.

    You can get good reactions with a measly 13 CHA (only +1 bonus) if you have 20 reputation (which gives a very high bonus) If you have very high CHA of 18 or more, and normal reputation, you may still get a good reaction. (like in the beginning of the game, if you have 18 CHA you can get the dagger+1 since your rep is neutral, only your charm is important.) If, on the other hand, you have very low reputation, you get such a hefty penalty that not even your superb looks and charm can grant you a nice reaction from NPCs.

    Another thing about attack rolls. Every armor has an additional modifier against different types of attacks. Like bludgeoning, slashing, piercing. For example, chain mail is weak against bludgeoning attacks, since the links of the chain will press into your flesh and hurt you, so an attacker attacking a target with chain mail gets +2 to hit. Leather armor offers no protection against piercing or missile, if you had leather, and Shank attacks you with his dagger, he would get +2 to hit as well. (Note that all modifiers are applied, if you had a ranged weapon equipped too, Shank would have 2+4=+6 to hit!) There are various items that grant AC bonus against certain type of attacks. Like girdle of piercing gives you +3 AC vs missile, it means an archer attacking you will have base -3 to hit.

    All modifiers are calculated in the end. Say, attacker has high dexterity (+2 to hit) has a long bow (+1) and is specialised (+1) and is an elf (+1). The defender is equipped with leather armor (which is weak against arrows so gives the attacker another +2 to hit) and girdle of piercing (-3 to piercing attacks) so the attack modifier will be: (2+1+1+1+2-3=+4) so you will see the attack roll like this: X (the number the attacker rolls)+4(the final modifier calculated as above)=Z
  • NocturneNNocturneN Member Posts: 123
    edited January 2013
    TJ_Hooker said:

    There's a table on page 19 of the Mastering Melee and Magic game manual that lists the bonus/penalty to reaction due to your reputation. That being said, I may remember hearing somewhere that the values listed there are incorrect.

    I'll do a search, later (my gaming-finger is twitching! ;) ) and see if I can find those tables, thanks. As I've said, this isn't BG:EE, but BGT so I'm not sure if there are any differences, though from what I've seen there's not much of a difference between an old, modded, BG-installation and BG:EE (no offense intended!).

    From the TotSC reference tables:

    9c. Reputation Reaction Adjustments

    Reputation Effect

    20 The party receives a +4 reaction adjustment
    18–19 The party receives a +3 reaction adjustment
    16–17 The party receives a +2 reaction adjustment
    14–15 The party receives a +1 reaction adjustment
    8–13 No adjustment
    7 The party receives a –1 reaction adjustment
    6 The party receives a –2 reaction adjustment
    5 The party receives a –3 reaction adjustment. Whenever the party
    enters a new area, there will be a 10% chance of a group of the
    Flaming Fist spawning in and moving toward the party.
    4 The party receives a –4 reaction adjustment. The party receives a –6
    reaction adjustment. Whenever the party enters a new area, there
    will be a 20% chance of a group of the Flaming Fist spawning and
    moving toward the party.
    3 The party receives a –5 reaction adjustment. Whenever the party
    enters a new area, there will be a 30% chance of a group of the
    Flaming Fist spawning and moving toward the party.
    2 The party receives a –6 reaction adjustment. Whenever the party
    enters a new area, there will be a 50% chance of a group of the
    Flaming Fist spawning and moving toward the party.
    1 The party receives a –7 reaction adjustment. Whenever the party
    enters a new area, a group of warriors will spawn and move toward
    the party.


    So, as @lunar said, having a reputation of 20 will give you as much Reaction increase as if your character had 16 or 17 CHA. Though I'm unsure what the 2nd number for rep values 4, means - typo?

    The Reaction Roll:

    Charisma

    Reaction Adj: This is the penalty or bonus due the character when dealing
    with NPCs or intelligent creatures.
    For encounter reactions, the computer generates a number between 8 and 12,
    and then applies the modifier. The results indicate the reaction of the
    encounter to your party:
    1–7: Hostile reaction
    8–14: Neutral reaction
    15–20: Friendly reaction


    So. What confuses me: let's say my char rolls an 8 (lowest). Then he gets +5 from 18 CHA, and -1 from 7 rep (8+5-1= 12), that means he gets a neutral reaction. In order to get a friendly reaction (which gives the best rewards), he needs to roll 14, 13, 12 or 11. If he rolls 10, 9 or 8, he gets a neutral reaction (i.e. not so good rewards, and I assume a hostile reaction is either the NPC refusing conversation with you or outright attacking you! - though with the combined CHA and Reputation scores in my case, that shouldn't be possible). So why is it that 3 out of 3 chars with these stats have always gotten the neutral reaction when there is supposedly atleast a 60% chance of getting the good reaction? I must be missing something. :/
    lunar said:

    Reputation and your charisma both affect NPC reactions. The more heroic you are, the less charm you need. And vice versa.

    You can get good reactions with a measly 13 CHA (only +1 bonus) if you have 20 reputation (which gives a very high bonus) If you have very high CHA of 18 or more, and normal reputation, you may still get a good reaction. (like in the beginning of the game, if you have 18 CHA you can get the dagger+1 since your rep is neutral, only your charm is important.) If, on the other hand, you have very low reputation, you get such a hefty penalty that not even your superb looks and charm can grant you a nice reaction from NPCs.

    Another thing about attack rolls. Every armor has an additional modifier against different types of attacks. Like bludgeoning, slashing, piercing. For example, chain mail is weak against bludgeoning attacks, since the links of the chain will press into your flesh and hurt you, so an attacker attacking a target with chain mail gets +2 to hit. Leather armor offers no protection against piercing or missile, if you had leather, and Shank attacks you with his dagger, he would get +2 to hit as well. (Note that all modifiers are applied, if you had a ranged weapon equipped too, Shank would have 2+4=+6 to hit!) There are various items that grant AC bonus against certain type of attacks. Like girdle of piercing gives you +3 AC vs missile, it means an archer attacking you will have base -3 to hit.

    All modifiers are calculated in the end. Say, attacker has high dexterity (+2 to hit) has a long bow (+1) and is specialised (+1) and is an elf (+1). The defender is equipped with leather armor (which is weak against arrows so gives the attacker another +2 to hit) and girdle of piercing (-3 to piercing attacks) so the attack modifier will be: (2+1+1+1+2-3=+4) so you will see the attack roll like this: X (the number the attacker rolls)+4(the final modifier calculated as above)=Z

    Yes, I know this already, but 'Tis useful information for new players! :)

    How I'd explain it:

    Let's say you have an AC of 6 (-4 AC from 18 dex, standard base AC for all classes and races afaik is 10), then this is your unmodified, standard AC. It has no modifiers, no matter your attacker's weapon, he will always have an equal chance of hitting or missing you, depending on his thac0 (example: A level 1 Fighter with 2 ** in Long sword and 18/55 STR will have a thac0 of 17 assuming he has no additional modifiers for race or items, etc (Elves get +1 to longsword and bows, haflings can reach a natural 19 dex which translates into +1 hit with missile weapons, for example. Haflings also have +1 hit with slings, just as Elves are also able to reach 19 dex which translates into a total +2 hit for Elves with bows, and +2 hit for Halflings with Slings):

    The aforementioned fighter must roll 17 or higher in order to hit an opponent with an AC of 0. But your character have 6 AC (low/negative numbers are usually better in BG!), so in order to hit your character, the fighter "only" needs to roll 17 - 6 = 11 (or higher) to hit. If your character had better AC, say, -3, then the same fighter would have to roll -3 - 17 = 20 in order to hit. A natural 20 is always a (critical) hit in 2nd ed AD&D, so, he would always hit with a roll like that. I.e. there is always atleast a 5% chance to hit your opponent. Likewise, a natural 1 is always a (critical) miss, so you always have atleast 5% risk of missing your opponent. (See this excellent post for how low thac0 is needed in Throne of Bhaal, the endgame of the BG series!)

    Now, let's stick with Leather Armor as an example:

    Standard Leather Armor has a base AC value of 8. 10 (Standard AC for all races & classes without any modifiers from DEX or items) - 8 = 2. That means you detract 2 from your AC, so with Leather Armor your 18 dex character will have -4 AC. But! Leather Armor has a +2 modifer against piercing and missile attacks! So against missile and piercing attacks, you actually have the same AC as if you're wearing no armor at all (4+2 = 6). You have no modifiers for Blunt (Clubs, Flails, Maces, Hammers...ect) and/or Slashing (Long Swords, Bastard Swords, Scimitars, Shortswords, Axes, Katanas...etc) weapons, however, meaning that Leather Armor is actually an upgrade over no armor since it gives you -2 AC to Slashing & Blunt (bludgeoning, crushing) weapons, although a small one.

    (I am unsure wether or not the penalties to thieveing skills stated in the manual actually applies, however)
    Post edited by NocturneN on
  • TJ_HookerTJ_Hooker Member Posts: 2,438
    edited January 2013
    NocturneN said:

    Let's say you have a base AC of 6 (-4 AC from 18 dex, standard starting AC for all classes and races afaik is 10), then this is your unmodified, standard AC.

    This is not correct. The AC you get from dex is an AC bonus, just like you would get from a ring of protection. It doesn't affect your base AC. Base AC is 10, regardless of stats, exept for monks, whose base AC improves with level. You can improve your base AC with: armor/certain robes, bracers of armor, certain spells (like Armor or Shield), and probably a few other things I'm forgetting.

    Edit: Also, in your elven fighter example, he would have a THAC0 of 16. 20 base, -1 from being an elf using a longsword, -1 from ** in longsword, -2 from 18/55 strength.

    Edit 2: oops, you said that he would have 17 THAC0 assuming he didn't have any bonuses, such as from being an elf.
  • NocturneNNocturneN Member Posts: 123
    edited January 2013
    @TJ_Hooker

    example: A level 1 Fighter with 2 ** in Long sword and 18/55 STR will have a thac0 of 17 assuming he has no additional modifiers for race or items

    AC from DEX: Ahh, yeah, that is true, but also largely sematics, imho. I'll edit, though. :)

    EDIT No worries TJ, and thanks! :) /EDIT
  • TJ_HookerTJ_Hooker Member Posts: 2,438
    NocturneN said:

    AC from DEX: Ahh, yeah, that is true, but also largely sematics, imho. I'll edit. :)

    It's actually more important than you might think, as whether or not it is base AC determines what it will stack with. For example, if DEX really did set your base AC, and you had a character with 17 DEX (so base AC of 7), equipping leather or studded leather armor wouldn't improve your AC, because they both have a base AC >= to your base AC, and 2 sources of base AC don't stack.

    The distinction between things that set a value, which do not stack, as compared to things that provide a bonus/penalty, which do stack, actually applies to many other things in the game, such as your THAC0, your stats, etc.
  • NocturneNNocturneN Member Posts: 123
    edited January 2013
    @TJ_Hooker Interesting! I didn't think of that. I'll scrutinize my post, later, thank you again!
  • atcDaveatcDave Member Posts: 2,387
    Well and dexterity bonuses don't apply when surprised (at least in PNP, I'm uncertain about BG implementation).
  • NocturneNNocturneN Member Posts: 123
    edited February 2013
    Can anyone confirm wether or not wearing armor impacts thieving skills in BG?
  • DjimmyDjimmy Member Posts: 749
    NocturneN said:

    Can anyone confirm wether or not wearing armor impacts thieving skills in BG?

    Depends on the type of armor. Leather and Studded leather armors DO NOT impact thieving skills, Chain Mail armors DO impact thieving skills.

    Chain mail armor penalties:
    Open locks: -5
    Find traps: -5
    Move silently: -10
    Pickpockets: -20

    I got the information from here http://www.ironworksforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9574
  • TheCoffeeGodTheCoffeeGod Member Posts: 618
    edited February 2013
    NocturneN said:

    Can anyone confirm wether or not wearing armor impacts thieving skills in BG?

    @Jalily posted in one of the threads awhile back (which I can't seem to find at the moment), that only the Hide and Elven Chain penalties were implimented.
    Other than those, no, armor doesn't impose penalties on theiving skills.

    -edit-
    Found it!
    http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/14695/stealing-in-stores-questions-spoilers#Comment_239718


  • NocturneNNocturneN Member Posts: 123
    Thanks guys, very insightful! It appears then that the BG2 manual is erranous, and that the modifiers are shown, not hidden. I.e. great news! :)
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