assassin style characters, how do they work?

kingthrall

I have been trying to figure out the whole stealth ability use since once you make any action you are totally visible. The back stab ability has only one shot of working to do 3 times the amount of damage and I am still trying to figure out if you can even take down any semi-powerful enemy such as a doom guard or a mage with shielding as a stealth character.

Im interested in making a stealth character but have no idea why I should invest in hide in shadows compared to detect/open locks skills. I also dont want a range character as I have already got a ranger.

TJ_Hooker

I'd say scouting and taking out mages are the things I use it for most. Just have your stealthed thief out ahead of you party while exploring a map. If you come across a group of enemies, you can regroup and plan a bit before you start the battle. Position you rogue behing the most valuable target (usually a mage) and then start the battle. With any luck, you'll no longer be facing a mage.

Fardragon

I'm not a huge fan of stealth attacks myself, but there are a few things about backstab worth noting:

You don't need to be stealthed, you just need to be behind your target.

You just need to be out of sight of hostile enemies to re-enter stealth. Running round a corner works (which is easy if hasted).

Backstabs can certainly take out very powerful foes, but it's fiddly to use and some enemies are immune.

You might find it easier with a Mage/Thief (gnome Illusionist/Thief). You can use invisibility spells and not bother with Hide/Sneak skills at all.

Unless you have another thief in the party, I would always max out Find Traps before any other skill.

Oxford_Guy

Backstab can more effective, though doesn't do as much initial damage as a good sword, if you use the Dagger of Venom and/or the Assassin's Posion Weapon ability (which I think gets more powerful after level 5, as well as more usages per day, though this isn't documented), especially against casters, as it interupts their spell casting each round whilst it's still in effect, though with the Posion Weapon ability, this counts as an action, so breaks stealth, so is hard to use for backstabs unless you activate it first, then hide or go invisible, then quickly backstab. Potions of Invisbility or the Invisibility spell (e.g. for Mage/Thiefs, ho make nasty backstabbers) allows repeat backstabs.

A point in Single weapon fighting is nice for backstabs, as doubles the chance of a criticial hit, which can be *very* effective for backstabs.

Late in the game the Staff of Striking *can* give you one-shot kills from backstabs, though.

Also, it's worth always trying to use a weapon with a fast speed for backstabs, especially if the target is moving. One other thing to bear in mind if dual-wielding, the fastest weapon is the one that does the backstab, so ensure it's the one in the main hand, to avoid a penalty to hit.

TJ_Hooker

Fardragon said:

You don't need to be stealthed, you just need to be behind your target.

You need to be stealthed/invisible to backstab in BG.

Fardragon said:

Backstabs can certainly take out very powerful foes, but it's fiddly to use and some enemies are immune.

I think this only really becomes a problem in ToB.

Oxford_Guy

Fardragon said:

I'm not a huge fan of stealth attacks myself, but there are a few things about backstab worth noting:

You don't need to be stealthed, you just need to be behind your target

Not true

kingthrall

seems like an incredible amount of effort for a simple combat compared to just being a fighter/thief with a +4 skill in short swords.

Oxford_Guy

kingthrall said:

seems like an incredible amount of effort for a simple combat compared to just being a fighter/thief with a +4 skill in short swords.

No, it can be very effective, especially against enemy casters, though I don't bother for simple encounters. Also don't forget you also get +4 to hit for attacking from stealth (as does *any* character come to that). BTW you can;t backstab from Sanctuary, if cleric/thief, not do you get the +4 bonus like attacking from stealth, but it can still be useful to safely move next to the character you want to backstab, if also stealthed.

kingthrall

while on subject of stealth. I am trying to figure if a dual welding fighter in just daggers (eventually getting the one that makes you go to sleep in bg2) would be effective?

Oxford_Guy

kingthrall said:

while on subject of stealth. I am trying to figure if a dual welding fighter in just daggers (eventually getting the one that makes you go to sleep in bg2) would be effective?

Yes. though dual-wielding makes no difference for backstabs, as you only get one attack, also as mentioned above, make sure you have the fastest weapon in the main hand, if dual-wielding (though for backstabs single weapon fighting is more effective). Also only Fighter/Thieves and Stalkers can backstab. Dagger of Venom is nice for backstabs, as mentioned above. BTW Some throwing daggers get a strength bonus to damage in BGEE (not in vanilla BG2, only throwing axes do though maybe different for BG2EE), though there are no magic ones in BGEE (some nice ones in BGW, though).

kingthrall

well I know already that there is no backstab for a pure fighter class. I was just thinking you would have amazing chance to hit ratio's and speed to interrupt wizards spellcasting better than a wizard slayer.

Oxford_Guy

kingthrall said:

well I know already that there is no backstab for a pure fighter class. I was just thinking you would have amazing chance to hit ratio's and speed to interrupt wizards spellcasting better than a wizard slayer.

Okay, I think you probably only get the stealth bonus for your first attack, though

Madhax

My stealthy fighter/thief was fantastic in my last game. You can take out most weak enemies, especially mages, before they get a single shot off (assuming they don't start the fight buffed, which a few do). It's also possible to backstab, disengage from combat, run around a corner, re-stealth, and backstab again.

I recommend a fighter/thief for this role because, at worst, he's still a fighter. Trying to play the Assassin kit, for example, essentially puts all of your eggs into the Backstabbing basket, which isn't always the best idea.

Oxford_Guy

Madhax said:

My stealthy fighter/thief was fantastic in my last game. You can take out most weak enemies, especially mages, before they get a single shot off (assuming they don't start the fight buffed, which a few do). It's also possible to backstab, disengage from combat, run around a corner, re-stealth, and backstab again.

I recommend a fighter/thief for this role because, at worst, he's still a fighter. Trying to play the Assassin kit, for example, essentially puts all of your eggs into the Backstabbing basket, which isn't always the best idea.

Well, there's poison and later traps too...

Zarakinthish

Speaking of poison, I'm curious if anyone has ever tried using the poison weapon ability on a Dagger of Venom and seeing if the effects stack. I think I may try it out later today.

Madhax

Oxford_Guy said:

Madhax said:

My stealthy fighter/thief was fantastic in my last game. You can take out most weak enemies, especially mages, before they get a single shot off (assuming they don't start the fight buffed, which a few do). It's also possible to backstab, disengage from combat, run around a corner, re-stealth, and backstab again.

I recommend a fighter/thief for this role because, at worst, he's still a fighter. Trying to play the Assassin kit, for example, essentially puts all of your eggs into the Backstabbing basket, which isn't always the best idea.

Well, there's poison and later traps too...

Blah, I always gloss over the poison when talking about assassins. My mistake.

Still, assassins need quite a few levels under their belt to consistently connect with their moves, since they can't multiclass and a dual-class assassin is worthless unless you're comfortable with major downtime. Unless the assassin is a half-orc with max strength, it will be quite a while in BG1 before they can consistently land a backstab, while the fighter/thief can reach exceptional strength and has a fighter's THAC0.

Plus, a well-built BG1 fighter/thief can reach maximum stealth while maintaining sufficient points to open every lock, disarm every trap, and pick every pocket with some item/potion support. Pretty sure an assassin can't pull that off.

Oxford_Guy

Zarakinthish said:

Speaking of poison, I'm curious if anyone has ever tried using the poison weapon ability on a Dagger of Venom and seeing if the effects stack. I think I may try it out later today.

Yes they do, and they both stack with themselves on additonal hits, poison can get *really* nasty

ZanathKariashi

You're greatly over-estimating the Half-orc str bonus, it's nice, don't get me wrong, but you pay for it in spades. Assassin's have crappy skill progression and those 40 racial points from shorties are a GOD SEND, not to mention the uber-saves. If you're missing a backstab as any character, you either did something wrong or just have REALLY bad luck. It's incredibly rare for a backstab to miss, unless you're a level 1 thief trying to backstab someone in plate with a non-blunt weapon, so much so I often question whether the game mechanic is actually working like PnP (+4 hit, a ignores shield and dex bonuses) or working like people say BG does it (just +4 hit).

And due to that giant str belt being added, ANY race can have 19 str extremely early in the game.

Zutti

ZanathKariashi said:

And due to that giant str belt being added, ANY race can have 19 str extremely early in the game.

Yes, but a half-orc could get to 20! str with a tome, and free up the strength belt for yeslick/khalid/branwen/jaheria or whoever else may benefit. A half-orc plus the belt and gloves means at least 3 characters with extremely high strength regardless of where they began.

Madhax

ZanathKariashi said:

You're greatly over-estimating the Half-orc str bonus, it's nice, don't get me wrong, but you pay for it in spades. Assassin's have crappy skill progression and those 40 racial points from shorties are a GOD SEND, not to mention the uber-saves. If you're missing a backstab as any character, you either did something wrong or just have REALLY bad luck. It's incredibly rare for a backstab to miss, unless you're a level 1 thief trying to backstab someone in plate with a non-blunt weapon, so much so I often question whether the game mechanic is actually working like PnP (+4 hit, a ignores shield and dex bonuses) or working like people say BG does it (just +4 hit).

And due to that giant str belt being added, ANY race can have 19 str extremely early in the game.

Fair point. I wasn't so much recommending Half-Orcs as assassins as I was trying to explain why I don't find the assassin kit to be nearly as good at assassinating stuff as a fighter/thief, and certainly not as versatile.

Quartz

ZanathKariashi said:

And due to that giant str belt being added, ANY race can have 19 str extremely early in the game.

Not technically true though...

You don't technically have access to the area that contains the Big-Fisted Belt until you get Rasaad up to the docks in Baldur's Gate. That's chapter 5 if you're not cheating.