WSAD controls

Biron5k

I realize some of the shortcuts rely on these keys, but not being able to control my character via WSAD controls was the most frustrating aspect of the original Baldur's Gate versions, and I just simply couldn't complete it as a result. I played through a mod of Dragon Age that was the opening dungeon from Baldur's Gate 2, and moving via the keyboard was what made the experience so much more enjoyable. I didn't care about the lack of voice acting or the graphics, or seeing faces for conversations, but the controls were difficult to enjoy. If being able to move the character with the keyboard was possible, I would definitely pre-order this game the instant I could.


Edit: You'd move up, down, left, and right, guys. Like, W makes you move toward the top of the screen and S makes you move toward the bottom. How is this a bad idea if the characters are programmed to follow you? How is it so different from just clicking?

O_Bruce

I don't really see this coming as a actually working feature. Think of moving entire group of people (+ summoned creatures, familiar etc.) in choosen formation with WSAD keys. It just doesn't work.

Jander

How would WSAD keys even operate in an isometric game? It doesn't make sense. What would be "forward"? And how would you move the whole party?

ElectricMonk

Yeah, the WSAD controls don't really apply to games like Baldur's Gate. Hitting W is supposed to move you "forward," but as there is no screen rotation in games like Baldur's Gate, these directional ideas are already pointless, not to mention the fact that controlling a party of six characters plus summons via WSAD would just be crazy. I'm not sure how much of a chance you gave the game, and maybe these types of games just aren't for you, but I'd recommend giving it another try. The point-and-click system works perfectly for these games, but I think it can be difficult for people used to 3D games that employ WSAD to get used to it, so I think that if you really give it a chance you'll realize it's a system that works really well.

Biron5k

Jander said:

How would WSAD keys even operate in an isometric game? It doesn't make sense. What would be "forward"? And how would you move the whole party?

Uhhh, W moves the character up, A moves the character left, S moves the character down and D moves the character right? I didn't think it was such a difficult concept to grasp.

Biron5k

jaysl659 said:

Yeah, the WSAD controls don't really apply to games like Baldur's Gate. Hitting W is supposed to move you "forward," but as there is no screen rotation in games like Baldur's Gate, these directional ideas are already pointless, not to mention the fact that controlling a party of six characters plus summons via WSAD would just be crazy. I'm not sure how much of a chance you gave the game, and maybe these types of games just aren't for you, but I'd recommend giving it another try. The point-and-click system works perfectly for these games, but I think it can be difficult for people used to 3D games that employ WSAD to get used to it, so I think that if you really give it a chance you'll realize it's a system that works really well.

They could, I don't know, have the characters follow the controlled character. It really isn't that complicated. It worked easily in Dragon Age. They aren't exactly limited by the game engine anymore. I don't understand why you all are so adamantly against this.

scriver

It's really a matter of resources. The game is set to be released in September, which doesn't leave much time, and the people arguing against you probably just doesn't see this as being important enough to bother implement over other things.

dandy

With no screen rotation, one would be forced to move in only linear directions, making the game pretty impossible
Plus, I like being able to send one party member to one part of the map and another to another part, which you would be pretty unable to do using that system

You can also leave your characters completely off the screen, do the being able to scroll across the map. What happens if you try to move your character while on a different part of the map?

It's really just not feasible for this game

And no, they can't add a rotate feature as the maps are made to be seen from one direction, and they're flat canvases with no depth

ajwz

I dont think that WASD controls would be a bad Idea as and additional navigational tool, especially in narrow areas

Biron5k

dandy said:

With no screen rotation, one would be forced to move in only linear directions, making the game pretty impossible
Plus, I like being able to send one party member to one part of the map and another to another part, which you would be pretty unable to do using that system

You can also leave your characters completely off the screen, do the being able to scroll across the map. What happens if you try to move your character while on a different part of the map?

It's really just not feasible for this game

And no, they can't add a rotate feature as the maps are made to be seen from one direction, and they're flat canvases with no depth

First of all, there could easily be the ability to have a "Hold" key that makes the party hold back. Just look at some Dragon Age gameplay footage. It works. On the PC version, you can have an isometric view in the first one. No need to rotate the screen from that view. The game offers both WSAD controls and click controls, and you use both. Also, when did I say, "I want to take away the iconic isometric view that the fans cream their pants over while also removing the ability to control by clicking?"

ElectricMonk

Biron5k said:

jaysl659 said:

Yeah, the WSAD controls don't really apply to games like Baldur's Gate. Hitting W is supposed to move you "forward," but as there is no screen rotation in games like Baldur's Gate, these directional ideas are already pointless, not to mention the fact that controlling a party of six characters plus summons via WSAD would just be crazy. I'm not sure how much of a chance you gave the game, and maybe these types of games just aren't for you, but I'd recommend giving it another try. The point-and-click system works perfectly for these games, but I think it can be difficult for people used to 3D games that employ WSAD to get used to it, so I think that if you really give it a chance you'll realize it's a system that works really well.

They could, I don't know, have the characters follow the controlled character. It really isn't that complicated. It worked easily in Dragon Age. They aren't exactly limited by the game engine anymore. I don't understand why you all are so adamantly against this.

As far as this working in Dragon Age, you didn't have six party members in Dragon Age, and in BG many players like to maintain complete specific control over all party members instead of controlling one while the rest either hold or follow. I'm not saying that it's impossible for an idea similar to tradition WSAD controls to be implemented, just that it isn't something I would like to see. Also, it definitely isn't fair to keep comparing the concept to a 3D game, as it would work entirely differently in BG. You could never walk in a diagonal direction (or any direction other than up, down, left, right for that matter). This means you would have to simulate walking diagonally by walking up, then left, up, then left, and so on, which to me seems like more of a hassle, especially in narrow areas. The reason that a simple WSAD control works so well in 3D games is because of screen rotation, because you can turn those four simple directional functions into all directions via screen rotation.

Again, I'm not saying that something along these lines is impossible, it just seems clumsy to me, not something I'd really like to see.

Biron5k

jaysl659 said:

Biron5k said:

jaysl659 said:

Yeah, the WSAD controls don't really apply to games like Baldur's Gate. Hitting W is supposed to move you "forward," but as there is no screen rotation in games like Baldur's Gate, these directional ideas are already pointless, not to mention the fact that controlling a party of six characters plus summons via WSAD would just be crazy. I'm not sure how much of a chance you gave the game, and maybe these types of games just aren't for you, but I'd recommend giving it another try. The point-and-click system works perfectly for these games, but I think it can be difficult for people used to 3D games that employ WSAD to get used to it, so I think that if you really give it a chance you'll realize it's a system that works really well.

They could, I don't know, have the characters follow the controlled character. It really isn't that complicated. It worked easily in Dragon Age. They aren't exactly limited by the game engine anymore. I don't understand why you all are so adamantly against this.

As far as this working in Dragon Age, you didn't have six party members in Dragon Age, and in BG many players like to maintain complete specific control over all party members instead of controlling one while the rest either hold or follow. I'm not saying that it's impossible for an idea similar to tradition WSAD controls to be implemented, just that it isn't something I would like to see. Also, it definitely isn't fair to keep comparing the concept to a 3D game, as it would work entirely differently in BG. You could never walk in a diagonal direction (or any direction other than up, down, left, right for that matter). This means you would have to simulate walking diagonally by walking up, then left, up, then left, and so on, which to me seems like more of a hassle, especially in narrow areas. The reason that a simple WSAD control works so well in 3D games is because of screen rotation, because you can turn those four simple directional functions into all directions via screen rotation.

Again, I'm not saying that something along these lines is impossible, it just seems clumsy to me, not something I'd really like to see.

Or you could just hold down two keys at once. And you can summon familiars. I've had a team with seven characters. It works.

Daedalus87m

it's just a bad idea (bad as in developers have better stuff to do with their limited time etc.)

Mathuzzz

I don´t really care if they would implement WSAD controls, because i don´t think I would ever use it, I´m used to control every party member individually. BG is meant to be played more like strategy game, while Dragon Age is more of third person game, so it is not so accurate to compare those two. But if it would be not that much of a time problem to implement it, why not, I´m not against it. Also I would like to see how would one handle fights in later parts of Throne of Bhaal or Shaodws of Amn with this controls. Another problem would be, that lots of times there are obstacles in your way. When you click to point where you want to go, you character will find the way, but if you use WSAD, you can easily miss the passage.

bgplaya

Baldur's Gate >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dragon's Age.

I vote we don't take any of their features.

Ravel

Daedalus87m said:

it's just a bad idea (bad as in developers have better stuff to do with their limited time etc.)

That's pretty much how I feel. Not to mention that this is beyond the scope of what they can likely accomplish before release (and thus should be in the post-ship features thread), but even when it comes to developing post-release features... there are quite a few things I would like to see before WASD controls.

I just don't feel like it adds much (if at all) to the game, and considering the limitations of the engine, it would likely require a fairly hefty time commitment from the devs.

ElectricMonk

Biron5k said:

jaysl659 said:

Biron5k said:

jaysl659 said:

Yeah, the WSAD controls don't really apply to games like Baldur's Gate. Hitting W is supposed to move you "forward," but as there is no screen rotation in games like Baldur's Gate, these directional ideas are already pointless, not to mention the fact that controlling a party of six characters plus summons via WSAD would just be crazy. I'm not sure how much of a chance you gave the game, and maybe these types of games just aren't for you, but I'd recommend giving it another try. The point-and-click system works perfectly for these games, but I think it can be difficult for people used to 3D games that employ WSAD to get used to it, so I think that if you really give it a chance you'll realize it's a system that works really well.

They could, I don't know, have the characters follow the controlled character. It really isn't that complicated. It worked easily in Dragon Age. They aren't exactly limited by the game engine anymore. I don't understand why you all are so adamantly against this.

As far as this working in Dragon Age, you didn't have six party members in Dragon Age, and in BG many players like to maintain complete specific control over all party members instead of controlling one while the rest either hold or follow. I'm not saying that it's impossible for an idea similar to tradition WSAD controls to be implemented, just that it isn't something I would like to see. Also, it definitely isn't fair to keep comparing the concept to a 3D game, as it would work entirely differently in BG. You could never walk in a diagonal direction (or any direction other than up, down, left, right for that matter). This means you would have to simulate walking diagonally by walking up, then left, up, then left, and so on, which to me seems like more of a hassle, especially in narrow areas. The reason that a simple WSAD control works so well in 3D games is because of screen rotation, because you can turn those four simple directional functions into all directions via screen rotation.

Again, I'm not saying that something along these lines is impossible, it just seems clumsy to me, not something I'd really like to see.

Or you could just hold down two keys at once. And you can summon familiars. I've had a team with seven characters. It works.

Okay, so you could hold down two keys at once, let's say W and D in order to start moving the character North-East. But what if you want the character to move North-North-East? This is impossible to attain with these controls. The point I was trying to make here is that the point and click system allows you to move to any point on the map, in any direction, via simply clicking there.

Then again, if it were to gain support and be implemented it wouldn't bother me since it wouldn't affect my experience at all (since I just wouldn't use it), so I guess it doesn't matter, I was just voicing my opinion on the idea.

Space_hamster

They are Spending a great deal of time converting the game to work on touch screen, I doubt they will mess with keyboard commands

Fluid29

I would probably prefer using the mouse for character movements over keys. i remember it worked pretty well to move different characters to different positions.

sozcaps

As I read over this topic, I keep hearing that saying; If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

The mouse + keyboard shortcuts is vastly superior in a game with strategic combat. Imagine playing Starcraft or LoL and having to move your character in WASD. Sounds nightmarish to me.

Besides, I'm used to WASD for my Spellbook, AI toggle, Stealth and Detect Traps works perfectly and has for a decade.

Biron5k

So what you're all essentially saying is that the ability to remap the controls is too much to ask for. Enjoy living in the past.

pathfindingAlgorithm

Biron5k said:

So what you're all essentially saying is that the ability to remap the controls is too much to ask for. Enjoy living in the past.

It's not too much... Most of the counter-arguments can be fixed/countered one way or another...
However, it's actually a matter of preference... The general feeling is that the gameplay is more than adequate and conforms with the complexity of the battle system... Doing otherwise would waste human resources and time....

pathfindingAlgorithm

On the other hand exposing the control system to modders (if possible) might save programmers from some work, a possibly bad implementation and testing time, while at the same time could encourage modders to implement completely different features/mini games/etc...

Not in my priority list, but might be good if time allows it....

sozcaps

Biron5k said:

So what you're all essentially saying is that the ability to remap the controls is too much to ask for. Enjoy living in the past.

It's more that WASD wouldn't really be more efficient for Baldur's Gate. Try looking at some pro or just LP gameplay videos from RTS games with isometric view, and tell me if they would have better control or more speed with WASD.

Mathuzzz

Biron5k said:

Enjoy living in the past.

If by living in the past you mean that all new games are action console ports with same logic no matter what genre the game is meant to be...than yes, I´m really enjoying my stay in the past.

Also, if memory serves me well, then it is the keyboard controls which are old and were replaced mostly during mid 90s.

The reason all of us are here is not only that BG is great game, but also that we appreciate that they are ehnancing game which IS NOT like all the newer RPGs, which mostly failed to be half that good.

Again, I´m not against it, but then, I can go to Doom 4 forums and ask them 1 month before releasing to add point-and-click controls as nice alternative.

No offense.

Biron5k

Mathuzzz said:

Biron5k said:

Enjoy living in the past.

If by living in the past you mean that all new games are action console ports with same logic no matter what genre the game is meant to be...than yes, I´m really enjoying my stay in the past.

Also, if memory serves me well, then it is the keyboard controls which are old and were replaced mostly during mid 90s.

The reason all of us are here is not only that BG is great game, but also that we appreciate that they are ehnancing game which IS NOT like all the newer RPGs, which mostly failed to be half that good.

Again, I´m not against it, but then, I can go to Doom 4 forums and ask them 1 month before releasing to add point-and-click controls as nice alternative.

No offense.

I say that as in, enjoy not allowing alternate controls because they aren't the same as your perfect game. When I read "enhanced," I think, "improved," not "kept the exact same minus compatibility." Why not just play the originals if you're all so against adding a feature that detracts NOTHING from your experience except opening it up to oter players? During combat, yeah, clicking works. While moving through the world, it's unnecessary.

pathfindingAlgorithm

! Caution !
Flammable Material

bgplaya

Because I can't play the originals, actually. Macs no longer support PowerPC programs.

And I'm looking forward to the new NPC's/quests. Not the new Dragon Age mechanics.

Mathuzzz

Biron5k said:

I say that as in, enjoy not allowing alternate controls because they aren't the same as your perfect game. When I read "enhanced," I think, "improved," not "kept the exact same minus compatibility." Why not just play the originals if you're all so against adding a feature that detracts NOTHING from your experience except opening it up to oter players? During combat, yeah, clicking works. While moving through the world, it's unnecessary.

If you read again through this discussion, you will notice, that most of us didn´t argue against it, but just expressed their opinion about it being unnecessary for them. Also it looks like they have some hard time to create interface and controls for all the ports, so if WSAD controls are to be implemented, it will be most likely post-release.

Mortes

Well, the problem with WASD is that it was meant for action-oriented realtime games like Quake. Baldur's Gate in my opinion is the contrary. It's a strategy-oriented game that is turnbased, where pausing the game is essential. You will split your party, moving them in groups and do other tactical stuff where WASD isn't useful.

So implementing WASD movement just for the time between battles? I don't see that many people would use it. It's inaccurate and you'll continuously have to keep your fingers on the keys to keep your party moving as pathfinding only works on point-and-click.

A compromise might be to implement a Diablo-like movement, where clicking and holding a mouse button will let your party follow the cursor. Maybe adding this functionality to the middle mouse button as holding down left/right mouse button is already in use.

This way it would get a bit more realtime feeling to it and still allow accurate movement (at least in comparison to WASD).

Biron5k

Mortes said:

Well, the problem with WASD is that it was meant for action-oriented realtime games like Quake. Baldur's Gate in my opinion is the contrary. It's a strategy-oriented game that is turnbased, where pausing the game is essential. You will split your party, moving them in groups and do other tactical stuff where WASD isn't useful.

So implementing WASD movement just for the time between battles? I don't see that many people would use it. It's inaccurate and you'll continuously have to keep your fingers on the keys to keep your party moving as pathfinding only works on point-and-click.

A compromise might be to implement a Diablo-like movement, where clicking and holding a mouse button will let your party follow the cursor. Maybe adding this functionality to the middle mouse button as holding down left/right mouse button is already in use.

This way it would get a bit more realtime feeling to it and still allow accurate movement (at least in comparison to WASD).

I like your idea. I prefer WSAD just because I play nearly every game I own ( mainly Dragon Age) like that. While click-only is understandable for during combat, it just seems stupid to me outside of it. Why would you need to position people strategically when in a shop or something? You wouldn't.