Demonmaster Ranger Kit

Xavioria

I've been brainstorming (for no reason because I'm not a modder) about an evil type ranger. The blackgaurd was introduced which now allows players to have a paladin in their party without the Paladin being a goodie two shoes! This was awesomesauce IMO and I thank you Beamdog, for being amazing in that respect (among others). I kind of think there should be one for rangers as well! SO, as I was trying again (futiley) to try to play a ranger, I stopped and decided not to because of their alignment restrictions. I hate playing good aligned PCs. I always have one or two in my party, but my main isn't allowed!

SO I was looking at the beastmaster and thought: HMMMM why not make an evil version of this with Monster summoning instead of animal summoning, and maybe some extra little additions, a change of alignment, a cute little bio for the kit, and BOOM, a decent ranger kit that doesn't have to be good, that is maybe balanced!

This thread is more for the inclusion of an evil type ranger, as opposed to the kit itself, but the name is just an added idea methinks

moopy

2e will not allow evil rangers because they wanted to have a love affair with Aragorn.

Seriously.

I see no problem with this given that BG2 has sorcerers from 3e though.

Zoimos

would much prefer if they just removed the alignment requirement for rangers all together

moopy

But then how could we play ranger while being in a bromance with Aragorn?!

Madhax

@moopy But surely that isn't hardcoded. Otherwise, how would Blackguards be a valid paladin kit?

moopy

@Madhax

Just to be clear, I was making fun of the bromance the original creators had with Aragorn. It made no sense, which is why it got changed in 3rd ed after D&D had been sold.

Xavioria

Rangers being Good aligned is not hard coded because it's simple as all hell to just change it with Shadowkeeper

Madhax

Then, on topic, I like this idea. If I might make some observations:

Unless the stealthy side of rangers is emphasized, this could easily be more of a paladin/blackguard kit. Since I'd rather see an evil ranger kit than two evil paladin kits, it's probably best to make this a stealthier class.

An offshoot of the Stalker kit, with inferior stealth and backstab, similar armor restrictions, possibly some weapon restrictions, loss of multiple divine magic schools and the addition of special abilities and spells pertaining to monster summoning could be quite interesting. It would be a cool solo class: Summon a bunch of monsters, tank with them while stealthed, then backstab while the enemy is distracted.

Xavioria

@Madhax well one thing I would like to stay away from are limiting things to the point of making the class unusable. There have been certain kit mods I've found that are limiting to the point of be plain silly, and it almost seems like a random paint job, where the modder just randomly put a bunch of disadvantages without any thoughts to the class.

For instance, this would be a great backstabbing class with the addition of going up to x3 (less than a stalker) where they can then stealth and yadda yadda. One thing I would remember though, is that if I would limit weapons, I would probably make it to "weapons a thief can use" that way if anyone wishes to dual to cleric, it isn't as limiting as "not allowed to use blunt weapons". I think All in all, it might look like this:

Demonmaster Ranger:

Advantages:
+15% bonus to hide in shadows and move silently
- May use backstab multiplyer, although for less than a thief:
-1-7 = x2
-9+ = x3
-8th level: May cast Monster summoning I and Find Familiar
-10th level: May cast Monster summoning II
-12th level: May cast Monster summoning III
-Immune to Fear and Moral Failure

Disadvantages:
-Must be of evil alignment
-Is limited to using weapons only a thief can use
-My not wear armor greater than studded leather

Not too flashy, but not too OP IMO. Although might be somewhat outclassed by a stalker, I feel like the immunity to fear (or it could be something else) would definitely balance things out between the two classes. The kit is limiting in weapons, similar to the Beastmaster, just through a different way, and were the player to dual class to a cleric, they would have monster summoning AND animal summoning, but wouldn't be diminished by the weapon choices.

moopy

I think this would be OP, because it basically combines a stalker + beastmaster. You get both for the price of one.

Madhax

I say take away the natural bonus to stealth that Stalkers get, and slow down the Backstab multiplyer's progression.

Of course, if you do that, this kit becomes really gimp in BG1 since they won't recieve the special abilities until the end of the game...

Xavioria

@Moopy This does not combine both classes as much as you think, because Stalkers can go up to x4, this class only goes up to x3. Also, stalkers also get extra spell selections, this one just gets an immunity in there, granted I think fear is overused, I wanted to put charm on there, not sure which one would be better. @Madhax I think you're right about the backstab muliplyer progression, the only problem is the gimping in BG1. Stalkers get 20 percent, this class get's the beastmaster's starting stealth which is 15 percent. Honestly though, stealth goes up a certain amount every level anyway, I figure if the starting amount isn't too high, by later levels I didn't think it would matter anyways.

In BG1, all they really have going for them is the backstab and immunity. In BG2, they'll have some extra summons to back them up. In ToB I don't think the summons would be too useful like the beastmaster, unless if these three spell consistantly go up in power even at higher levels.

Darkcloud

Maybe call the class Shademaster and give him a special summon shadow skill but take away his spell casting ability.

Xavioria

I'm a little confused to be completely honest. I really don't see what's so "OP" about this kit when comparing it to say... a cavalier or a stalker. Cavaliers aren't able to use ranged weapons. That's it. Stalkers can only wear studded leather. Not really much of disadvantages if you ask me, all I did with this idea was tack on a few interesting abilities after making it similar to the lackluster beastmaster kit. Granted I could think of a few other ways to make a ranger inherintely evil, but this seemed like a fun way to create a similar kit without going overboard.

I think in short, I was just posting a general idea out of the top of my head for an evil ranger kit, but I think I just generally want to be able to roll for a neutral or evil ranger, as opposed to having to deal with being good aligned all the time for playing a particular class I actually like.

Viziel

Darkcloud said:

Maybe call the class Shademaster and give him a special summon shadow skill but take away his spell casting ability.

This. Shademaster seems fair enough to me, and has a good variety(not too many) form of "shadow" monsters.

bill_zagoudis

rangers are close to nature and demons are unnatural,that would be the main issue,
also i would prefer to keep rangers without binding them to alignment, imo it is a set of skills,a woodsman,tracker,marskman and such you can do all of the above regardless of morality.

i can only understand paladin/blackguard alignment restriction and the classes that demand extreme discipline(kensai/monk)lawfull or the characters that enrage(berseker/barbarian) non-lawfull. the rest make no sense.

Xavioria

Well I wanted to make an evil ranger kit as something warped. Another thing is that Demon's aren't necessarily unnatural, they're just not natural to the prime material (Unless if I have something backwards) so I figure a Ranger who might be adept at wandering Hellish places and zones might technically count as a Ranger.

Although I don't know how a PC would roleplay such a class growing up in Candlekeep...

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