Clerics & Thiefs Thac0 and HP progression

Darkersun

This is something I never understood about the AD&D rules (if BG uses them correctly).

Why has the Cleric better Thac0 and HP progression than the Tief ?

The Cleric:

Pro:
- Cast Spells (lots of strong buffs making him even a better fighter)
- Can wear heavy Armor


Con:
- Cannot use Blade weapons




The Tief:
- Can backstab (as soon as hide & co is high enough to use it well)
- Has Traps (1 per 5 level's, powertrapping aside, because cheese, [needs to be leveled as well])
- Find traps and open locks (nice to have, but traps are not that bad, and for important chests knock spell does it as well)
- Detected Illusions (nice to have, if you can speare the points)

Con:
- limited weapon selection too
- Only light Armors


So why has the Thief even the lower Thac0 and HP progression ?
I think it would make more sense to let the Thief have the better Thac0 and HP gain right ?

Or is there something I overlooked. For me it even makes more sense from the ruleplaying part.

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Zutti

Darkersun said:

This is something I never understood about the AD&D rules (if BG uses them correctly).

Why has the Cleric better Thac0 and HP progression than the Tief ?

The Cleric:

Pro:
- Cast Spells (lots of strong buffs making him even a better fighter)
- Can wear heavy Armor


Con:
- Cannot use Blade weapons




The Tief:
- Can backstab (as soon as hide & co is high enough to use it well)
- Has Traps (1 per 5 level's, powertrapping aside, because cheese, [needs to be leveled as well])
- Find traps and open locks (nice to have, but traps are not that bad, and for important chests knock spell does it as well)
- Detected Illusions (nice to have, if you can speare the points)

Con:
- limited weapon selection too
- Only light Armors


So why has the Thief even the lower Thac0 and HP progression ?
I think it would make more sense to let the Thief have the better Thac0 and HP gain right ?

Or is there something I overlooked. For me it even makes more sense from the ruleplaying part.

In D&D, your thief did much more than just pick locks and find traps(although those were very important for your party thief). A thief in AD&D is not a frontliner. They are not WoW's rogue, never have been and should not become it.

You don't take a thief for their prowess in battle, but rather for their utility. Also, in PnP priest classes were limited by spheres as far as spell selection was concerned, and could lose access to their spells if they behaved in a manner that offended their deity.

Darkersun

But why should a Cleric be more of a warrior than the thief ?
Maybe having more spell restrictions would even out the problem, but to me it feels not very balanced.
And there are already warrior-priests (Paladin)

Wilbur

Cleric is supposed to be semi competent as a melee fighter where as thief is not. Thief should be lurking in shadows and back stabbing the weakest enemies, ideally mages or use a ranged weapon.

Bercon

The difference is reduced by thieves fast level progression at least in BG:EE, clerics at lvl 8 have base thac0 16 which is the same as thieves at level 10. This goes for hit points too. On later levels it is as you say.

Zutti

Darkersun said:

But why should a Cleric be more of a warrior than the thief ?
Maybe having more spell restrictions would even out the problem, but to me it feels not very balanced.
And there are already warrior-priests (Paladin)

Paladins are extremely restricted in comparison to a pure cleric. Not only in spellcasting, but in alignment.

Paladins are more warrior-priest, clerics are priest-warrior.

Thieves are taken for their special skills in and out of combat.

And it's not supposed to be balanced.

Aranthys

Base THACO of a thief at level 21 : 10
Base THACO of a priest at level 22 : 6

That's a maximum 4 difference in THACO (Note that a hidden character attempting a backstab has +4 bonus to thaco)

Moreover, Thieves level up quicker :

Level 21 Thief requires 2420000 xp
At 2420000 xp, your cleric will be level 18-19 and have a THACO of 8.

Long Story Short : Both their thacos suck anyway compared to fighters, so don't bother too much

Darkersun

Ok this make some sense.

It still would fell more natural to me the other way.

ryuken87

I don't really get the question, they are made-up classes in a fantasy world, why should anything be anything in particular.

atcDave

Clerics who adventure are definitely assumed to be cleric warriors. They also have received formal and extensive training as warriors, obviously only the true warrior classes get better. Thieves by comparison are more likely to be self trained or have a very informal sort of training syllabus. And thieves are primarily interested in pilfering and skulking, combat only as necessary. While clerics definitely see combat as part of their job description.

And for all that, thieves do have a slightly easier experience table. So even if their combat progression is slower than the cleric's, they will eventually be a level or so higher with the same experience. So any differences will be very small.

Corvino

AD&D predates the current crop of games with combat-orientated rogues by a loooong way. Back in the day one did not simply wander around with 2 daggers in the thick of combat, you hid, a long way away, with a bow.

If you do want to get stuck in then either Swashbucklers or Fighter/Thief Multis or Duals are good at it and more or less entirely lose the sucky THAC0 progression.

UnknownQuantity

Zutti said:

Darkersun said:

But why should a Cleric be more of a warrior than the thief ?
Maybe having more spell restrictions would even out the problem, but to me it feels not very balanced.
And there are already warrior-priests (Paladin)

Paladins are extremely restricted in comparison to a pure cleric. Not only in spellcasting, but in alignment.

Paladins are more warrior-priest, clerics are priest-warrior.

Thieves are taken for their special skills in and out of combat.

And it's not supposed to be balanced.

It is balanced, but not around combat. It's balanced around being useful to the group in some way that is unique. People always seem to feel the need for classes to be balanced in combat. I probably had the most fun time playing Everquest of any RPG and it was based on D&D 1st and 2nd editions. It was a real pain to take down even the weakest of PvE monsters. PvP was pretty unbalanced where it existed. Still it was the best PvE experience I've probably ever had. Neither the Rogue or the Warrior classes could compete with Clerics//Druids/Wizards/Conjurers/etc for pure power, but generally were essential in a group and needed to play their role well for the group to survive or recover from death. It's funny because I see a lot of RPGs have taken out the role of tank/healer and now everyone is just DPS with a different set of skills. It's very bland.

atcDave

I really dislike the current trend towards "balance". It all strikes me as very boring. In older games, half the fun was the complexity of things like different progressions and experience tables, so choosing a character involved a lot more planning and thought about trade-offs.

Toffee

Darkersun said:

It still would fell more natural to me the other way.

Exhibit A:

Exhibit B:

the_spyder

Understand that D&D originally was never about every character being equally powerful and stand alone. Each character had a function that they served in the party. And as such, a thief plays a different role than cleric.

Besides, you missed a bunch of stuff.

A cleric is limited by being the mouth piece of his/her Deity. They are limited not only by the armor/weapons of that Deity, but they must always function in the Deity's interests, agenda. If they don't they don't get spells. "Some" DMs would even limit or dictate what spells they can choose. And if you strayed from the Alignment/ethos of that Deity, you got slapped pretty hard. All of these are "Limitations" that don't translate in CRPG (more is the pity).

Also, as has been indicated, Thieves in PnP get more than what is present in BG. And "Just being able to find/remove traps" is HUGE in PnP. It is an absolutely vital function. CRPG traps are designed to be a nuisance, not really that deadly. The CRPG is more about longevity and continuing the adventure. In PnP, the ability to remove that trap "Might" must mean the life or death of one or more party members.

So in the final analysis, Clerics are more "RP" restricted and that is intended to be more of a handicap. In CRPG, a Paladin (as for example) can happily massacre a village of innocents. Not so in PnP. And Clerics are just as, if not more so, restricted. Thieves, on the other hand were never intended to be front liners. They are there for all of the other side stuff like exploring or opening chests and traps.

For all of that, playing BG, my party thief is ALWAYS one of the most valuable party members. He/she doesn't always get a high body count. But I can't tell you how often I have used one to scout out the coming battle and return essential intelligence that can turn the tide of battle. So don't look at them as having to be fighters with some extra skills. Look at them as performing a vital role that would be hard to mimic with any other class. Unique in their own right.

atcDave

I'm not sure I would say the PNP cleric is necessarily "more restricted" than other classes, but I completely agree clerics are a major role playing challenge that doesn't translate well to the CRPG. That always makes clerics one of my favorite classes, I love the issues that can come up, not always even alignment or ethically based; like if the cleric of a sea god really wants the party to travel by boat when that clearly doesn't seem the best choice to everyone else ("well, if we want healing on this mission maybe we should just take the boat, even if it will take two weeks longer...")
And those can be the sort of things no one even foresees when they're all doing character creation. Like someone making their cleric a follower of a healing god because it seems most useful, and then having to defend the deity's oracle later on even if a better paying mission is available too.

Fun stuff. That's one of my favorite things about PNP.

the_spyder

@atcDave. LOL. My DM absolutely made Clerics more restricted. He was a real stickler for that type of stuff. Granted, not all DM's are like that. I guess I just lucked (Good or bad?) out?

A cleric in my party once got in a fist fight/brawl in a bar. he was wearing Girdle of giant strength and hit some random patron. DOA. The cleric paid for that. Had to do a penance that lasted the entire next adventure. Sucked to be without healing for that long.

atcDave

Yeah DMs are often very different. But I never had one tell me what spells I could or couldn't take, well except for the appropriate spheres of course. And I have seen different DMs allow a lot, or just a few spheres for each priesthood. Again, that can make careful planning during the selection phase very important ("what do you mean my cleric can't learn Cure Serious Wounds?!" "Well, your WARRIOR deity only allows MINOR access to the healing sphere...")

I have some pretty fond thief memories too, but my favorite was actually a fighter/thief my wife played for several years, she played her as a military scout. Maybe almost like a Ranger, but sneakier. She loved finding sniper perches or getting into places she didn't belong, all in the interest of "information gathering" of course.

the_spyder

I personally love playing a thief. I had one that was a gnome illusionist/thief. he was no end of trouble for the party. I never regretted playing him even though he was the least combat capable character in the party. His specialty wasn't combat after all. Oh, he threw the odd spell to help out, but he was so much more adept at scouting and tricking opponents than anything else. He once had the party convinced that they were being stalked through the woods by a Red dragon. Boy were they mad when they found out the truth. But we all had a good laugh over it.... Much later....

DJKajuru

In AD&D , the inspiration for clerics were the teutonic knights, priests who were trained in the use of weapons and armors , that explains the better thac0.