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Mr first time ... (several spoilers)

I just finished my first game of BG playing evil! To be fair, my CHARNAME was chaotic neutral, but my party was evil. My party was CHARNAME (gnome illusionist / cleric), Dorn, Kaigan, Imoen & Tiax. My plan was only four party members to level up CHARNAME faster, but once I hit the city, I decided to add Tiax to the mix. It was actually pretty fun. I've played ton's of BG over the years, but I've always played good. Generally, I hate losing reputation, so I was pretty surprised that my problem was keeping my rep high enough that the guards weren't always attacking me. There were lots of people that just had to die.

A few observations:

- Being evil is Expensive! Really expensive. The escalated price of the basic items aren't a big deal, but when you're paying $15,000 extra for a robe of the arch-magi, that's a lot of dough! This was the first time I've ever struggled with affording things.

- Imoen's loyalty knows no bounds. Regardless of how low my rep was, Imoen hung on there with me. She wasn't always happy, sometimes she was downright cranky. She even resorted to nasty name calling. I'm not sure what "mongering" is, but I am NOT doing it to sheep. I may be Riff Raff though.

- There's a lot of Kaigan love in the forums. Everyone always says "that guy can take a hit!" And it's a good thing he can take a hit, because until you get him some dexterity, he stands there like a pylon and gets pounded on. I could always just imagine cursing at him "You know, you can try and dodge right?" At least you don't have to use as much healing on him. Oh, and he has priorities right. I need an ale!

- Some of the rep stuff is just weird. I go to High Hedge, and slaughter Thalantyr's golems. Thalantyr get's pissy about that, so I have to kill him too. No reputation penalties yet. Then I figure, I've got Melicamp standing there watching everything, so I better off the only witness to my slaughter, and bam! -2 reputation. So, leaving a witness = no reputation loss while killing the only witness = reputation loss.

- I didn't know that there were different Bhaalspawn abilities depending on alignment. That was kind of cool, although I did miss the healing abilities.

Comments

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  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    The rep loss despite no witnesses never made sense to me. This situation shows perfectly how flawed it is and how being "smart evil" reveals the stupidity of the rep system. There are many instances where no witness is present to begin with, and the only target you can kill is surrounded by mobs of gnolls, wolves and whatnot. That alone is enough cause for doubt that your party killed the person, assuming the body is ever found.
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    edited February 2013
    Um, Imoen WILL leave you if your rep drops to 2/1, somewhere in there. Happened to me once. We entered Nashkal with a rep of 4 and the guards attacked. After the first one went down, she up and left in mid combat. Now "That's" Loyalty for ya.

    As for the cost of things, I do agree. It is a real pain to be paying through the nose early on for stuff. BUT... Towards the end of the game, you end up with more money than you can throw at a monkey. So, it almost balances out. Almost!

    I too am playing through as an Evil party. I have Vi and Eddie and Shar-Teel (My new favorite) and Xzar and Monty and I plan on picking up Tiax when I get there (Bye, Xzar and Monty). I am finding that there are a number of opportunities to keep your rep low. But it is a knife edge balancing act. And you have to be prepared to accept that you have to bypass otherwise good XP simply to play the alignment. Granted, you get most of the best NPCs in the game, but the difficulty is absolutely ramped up because of the additional micro-management you have to do. It is tough.

    BTW, you can apparently kill a certain annoying person in Nashkal without taking a rep hit at all. Apparently nobody likes him.
  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    I don't find the prices all THAT bad. I usually have a high charisma leader, so it's not too bad. And I probably just got used to them and would stand there with a blank stare if I saw the regular "good" prices.

    One thing that I always thought should give at least a small rep drop is keeping Joseph's ring as payment. But nope, the widow just kicks you out. Assuming you let her live, she'd certainly tell people about that jerk who did that.
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    Yeah, there is absolutely a disconnect with your actions and how your reputation gets around. If you took out someone unseen, you still took the rep hit. And if you did something bad in some hick backwater like Nashkal, people in Baldur's Gate heard all about it, even when they hadn't heard that the issue with the mine was resolved. It is kind of wacky how they chose to do it all.
  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    There are a few messengers running around, but they all say they must be on their way to Amn, not Baldur's Gate. I can see how news would travel from city to city (or village), but for that, there has to be a witness to tell the messengers what happened. There's an iron crisis going on, so small to outright insignificant events (Joseph's ring, killing random ogres for Bjornin and so on) would probably never make it out of the place where it happened.
    I can see how it would be TOO complex to have a different reputation in different places, but the amount of good/bad rep should reflect how important and likely to be talked about an event really was. Killing a random mob (Bjornin) gives you +1, yet saving the slaves from the Cloakwood Mines and eliminating the bandit problem gives +2. Bjornin is one single paladin, who can only tell so many people in Beregost. Chances the tale of your deed travels far outside the Jovial Juggler are rather low; it's a generic tale that is likely told about many, many other adventurers in many, many other taverns. The freed slaves are a big group of people who will likely go home now and tell their friends and families about the group that saved them. Since there isn't a single village where all men suspiciously disappeared, it can be assumed they are all from different places. Hence your tale will travel much further. And the rep difference is ONE point...?
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    But you are forgetting human nature. I bet that half of the freed slaves in the mine either get it wrong as to who saved them, or even flat out lie and say that it was all down the them. LOL (all in fun).

    But yeah. Also, it seems to me that some events would be a positive to some groups and a negative to others. If your rep were particularly high, the bandits would cower in fear. But if it were low, they would herald your approach. Again, I get that would have been to much to expect out of the game then. But we can dream.

    And who really is listening to what the people of Nashkal are saying? According to everyone you meet in Baldur's Gate, Amn is going to war with us. And the iron crisis is still going on. Yet the fact that some no name commoner got done for by who knows who, but is attributed to you gets listened too?
  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    And maybe Joseph was a total bastard who beat his wife and she's glad he's dead. She's just keeping up the facade because she'd be embarrassed in front of the neighbors. She's not pissed that I kept the ring because she wanted something to remember him. She's pissed she can't sell it herself. :)
  • Oxford_GuyOxford_Guy Member Posts: 3,729
    hummer010 said:


    - I didn't know that there were different Bhaalspawn abilities depending on alignment. That was kind of cool, although I did miss the healing abilities.

    The Bhaalspawn abilities you receive are not directly dependent on alignment, but just on reputation - if you have a reputation of 10 or more when you get a dream sequence you get a "good" Bhaal ability, if 9 or less you get an "evil" one. Can be interesting to work things so that you get some of each - I do this for CN and NE CHARNAMES sometimes
  • CalmarCalmar Member Posts: 688

    The rep loss despite no witnesses never made sense to me. This situation shows perfectly how flawed it is and how being "smart evil" reveals the stupidity of the rep system. There are many instances where no witness is present to begin with, and the only target you can kill is surrounded by mobs of gnolls, wolves and whatnot. That alone is enough cause for doubt that your party killed the person, assuming the body is ever found.

    I always had the impression that reputation effectively fulfills the role of alignment. I mean, you chose an alignment during character creation and it's of no importance whatsoever.

    But if you do evil things, or turn into that monster form in BG II (what's it called, Reaper? Ravager?) then your 'reputation' decreases and you become more depraved and people start to despise you (and charge you moar gold).
  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    If I kill a commoner in a lonely forest near Nashkel, how would anyone know? Could have been the gnolls that stood basically 100 meters away from said commoner. Could be I never met that commoner, alive or dead. How does it make sense that such an event makes guards in Baldur's Gate attack me? I'm not walking through the gates with the head of the commoner on a stick. It makes even less sense if you have a high charisma charname, who could convince people he's a saint because he's a smooth talker. If I do evil things, I can still keep up appearances, be charming, nice, help people out - and they'd never know I stabbed the commoner in the woods.

    Also, in BG1, I do not walk around in bhaalform. And even if store owners could somehow smell how evil I am, they'd more likely give me things a lot cheaper, to not make me angry or burn their store down.
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    Helm sees all.
  • RaphielDrakeRaphielDrake Member Posts: 41
    This thread was nowhere near as promising as the name implied. Consider me misled.
  • hummer010hummer010 Member Posts: 95

    This thread was nowhere near as promising as the name implied. Consider me misled.

    @RaphielDrake: Well, if you must know, Dorn did try and romance my male charname, and that was definitely my first time for that!

    I got thinking about it, and if Dorn's door swings that way, I'm not sure a gnome is the right way to go. It seems there may be some ... issues ... between a half-orc and a gnome.

    I figure there is a better match for Dorn in the game. He is a half-elf, and he happens to be married to a hot druid, but I think if he's honest with himself, he is better suited to be the Yin to Dorns Yang.
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963

    This thread was nowhere near as promising as the name implied. Consider me misled.

    Mislead isn't available until BG2

  • SidemiSidemi Member Posts: 70
    edited February 2013
    Are you sure about Imoen? She left after I killed Ramazith, Ragefast and nymph in Baldur's Gate. It was tough to raise rep. :)
  • Oxford_GuyOxford_Guy Member Posts: 3,729
    Sidemi said:

    Are you sure about Imoen? She left after I killed Ramazith, Ragefast and nymph in Baldur's Gate. It was tough to raise rep. :)

    I think she leaves once your rep gets to 2 or less, like all good-aligned NPCs
  • IkMarcIkMarc Member Posts: 552
    Sidemi said:

    Are you sure about Imoen? She left after I killed Ramazith, Ragefast and nymph in Baldur's Gate. It was tough to raise rep. :)

    Lol that is like the most reputation devastating set of actions possible in Baldur's Gate.
  • darius404darius404 Member Posts: 12
    @Sidemi
    Sidemi said:

    Are you sure about Imoen? She left after I killed Ramazith, Ragefast and nymph in Baldur's Gate. It was tough to raise rep. :)

    Perhaps they've changed it, but in the original game she would still rejoin your party even if she left due to lowered rep.

  • dstoltzfusdstoltzfus Member Posts: 280
    Bribe the churches! Also, "I like it here (where the gold grows)". I think Kagain is my favorite NPC. Give him gauntlets of dexterity and he's amazing (an early find at that). It's a shame there is no character development behind it otherwise (still classic dwarf). I think any evil party needs him to tank (he's one of the best in the game imo). It is true evil parties have some of the best NPC's to make up for the rep management: best caster (Edwin or the new, surprise NPC), best cleric (Viconia), best tank (Kagain)...those are the basics; you can build anything around that (Shar-Teel and Monty make great backstabbing masters). Sorry if I derailed (I finally found some Johnny Double Black...)
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