Stat Rolling Suggestion

Dragonfolk2000

I know that a major part of the metagame was sitting there and rerolling stats until you got really good stats but there should be in consideration the ability to set a rule where only one set is rolled and the player can distribute those points as he sees fit. This would likely be used in a multiplayer game where the intention is to make things more 'authentic' and to shorten character gen time. This should not replace the original method but be added as an option for the one hosting the game.

Kalindor

Yes, this is a good idea. Also see the "Weighted Point Buy" topic as we have been musing about alternate stat rolling options.

ElectricMonk

The topic @Kalindor mentioned can be found here

As for your suggestion, I have always felt that rolling a thousand times until you get perfect stats is an exploit, but I realize that my opinion is different than some in that I'm familiar with the D&D rules and many people that play Baldur's Gate are only familiar with D&D through BG. Anyway, a lot of possibilities pertaining to this have been brought up in the aforementioned discussion.

Shin

Never saw it as an exploit, but honestly, if you're going to sit there rolling for an hour until you get the stats you want, you might as well just save yourself the time and edit them in from the get-go.

ElectricMonk

Never saw it as an exploit, but honestly, if you're going to sit there rolling for an hour until you get the stats you want, you might as well just save yourself the time and edit them in from the get-go.

The fact that you might as well just edit them is why I see it as an exploit. Sitting there and rolling until you have perfect stats is essentially the same thing as editing them yourself, and is therefore an exploit as far as I'm concerned.

Cheesebelly

It would certainly make multiplayer games with totally new characters easier. Then again, I think the game mechanics completely blocks off every single reroll which is < 75 total (essentially meaning that the worst stats roll possible is going to be three 15 and three 10)
I guess for it to be totally authentic, they would also need to remove that barrier, but then again, I tried creating a character with dice rolling in real life, the total stats number I got was around ~50, which is kind of bad XD

I would also agree with the Weighted Point Buy system to be added. I think it was done similarly in Temple of Elemental Evil (with the difference that rerolled stats could be set in whichever combination you wanted)
The number for allocatable stats is a big question though. Maybe something around 80 total? (you start with all abilities on 10, you can lower them or raise them. You have 20 points to choose, essentially meaning you could as well have one 18 and two 16, while the rest is on 10)

Dragonfolk2000

Baldur's Gate is actually what got me into D&D and I honestly can say that no GM in their right mind would let a player just keep rolling like that without some kind of limitation of how many sets you can roll. One thought is that your game will roll a stat matrix every day or week and you can select a set from there. Each set could only be used once. The downside to this is that this limits how many characters you can make in a day/week and it's possible that you just don't roll well, even with a stat matrix.

morgy321

kinda did like the system

SirBuliwyf

I'm curious as I can't remember, does stat allocation come before or after class' selection. It would be ideal if it came before as there would be nothing worse that picking a fighter and then rolling 9 for str and 18 int. you should be able to pick your class based off your stats, if your are prepared to leave your class selection down to fate.

Granted that's only something I'd be willing to do after my first play through after I've played what I really wanted.

Tanthalas

Class selection comes before stat allocation.

niklas

Never saw it as an exploit, but honestly, if you're going to sit there rolling for an hour until you get the stats you want, you might as well just save yourself the time and edit them in from the get-go.

The fact that you might as well just edit them is why I see it as an exploit. Sitting there and rolling until you have perfect stats is essentially the same thing as editing them yourself, and is therefore an exploit as far as I'm concerned.

On the contrary: The main character is a Bhaalspawn, so I think it's alright to roll for two hours to get that precious 18/00, I for one have enjoyed it. If you get really bad rolls, I don't think it is that serious if you decide to reroll. I mean what, you seriously don't reroll, even if you are making a fighter and get str of 18/01? And all the other stats happen to be crappy as well?
And if you want to play hardcore, there is always the possibility of an Ironman mode.
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/139/would-people-like-a-ironman-mode#latest

SirBuliwyf

Class selection comes before stat allocation.

Boooooo

SirBuliwyf

Who picks their career AFTER figuring out what they're good at?

Shin

Never saw it as an exploit, but honestly, if you're going to sit there rolling for an hour until you get the stats you want, you might as well just save yourself the time and edit them in from the get-go.

The fact that you might as well just edit them is why I see it as an exploit. Sitting there and rolling until you have perfect stats is essentially the same thing as editing them yourself, and is therefore an exploit as far as I'm concerned.

My opinion is that unless you play competitively, there's nothing to exploit. It's your playthrough - if you think a certain change is fine in your game, then it *is* fine. The only thing that matters is that you get to play it the way you enjoy it the most. If you don't, I'd say you're the one getting exploited - but I can also see how some players take pleasure in the knowledge that everything is done by the book. To each their own.

In multiplayer games, it seems more of an issue of playing with people who approach the game in the same way you do. If you want to forbid them from rerolling because you have a game in mind where everyone is average, you may want to forbid certain overpowered class combinations as well, and so on.

ElectricMonk

On the contrary: The main character is a Bhaalspawn, so I think it's alright to roll for two hours to get that precious 18/00, I for one have enjoyed it. If you get really bad rolls, I don't think it is that serious if you decide to reroll. I mean what, you seriously don't reroll, even if you are making a fighter and get str of 18/01? And all the other stats happen to be crappy as well?
And if you want to play hardcore, there is always the possibility of an Ironman mode.
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/139/would-people-like-a-ironman-mode#latest

I'm not really seeing that your status as a Bhaalspawn is relevant to stat rolling. Baldur's Gate was designed around and balanced against 2nd Edition AD&D rules, there was just no real way to limit the number of times a player rolled their stats, since even if they limited it to some number per character creation you can always just exit and start over. As for whether or not I personally reroll, my general rule is to decide ahead of time to allow myself somewhere between one and five rerolls and I keep the best one. This is more than enough to provide a balanced character in my opinion. As for ironman mode, I sort of do that (usually do limited reloads, such as only reload from inns and only when main char dies).

I understand that different challenge levels are appropriate for different people, but what I don't get is believing that rolling until you achieve perfect stats is any different than using an editor to change them directly or using the console to cheat in the appropriate tomes, etc. There is no difference. Which is why I see this as a cheat/exploit. As long as people aren't convincing themselves otherwise, then I don't have a problem with people playing the game in whatever way makes them happy, up to and including consoling in the infamous killsword (that does ~1000 points of damage) and giving your party enough XP to start the game at max level.

My issue is that the system as it exists now leads some people to believe that the game is balanced to allow for rolling perfect stats, when I don't believe that that was really the original intention.

ElectricMonk

My opinion is that unless you play competitively, there's nothing to exploit. It's your playthrough - if you think a certain change is fine in your game, then it *is* fine. The only thing that matters is that you get to play it the way you enjoy it the most. If you don't, I'd say you're the one getting exploited - but I can also see how some players take pleasure in the knowledge that everything is done by the book. To each their own.

In multiplayer games, it seems more of an issue of playing with people who approach the game in the same way you do. If you want to forbid them from rerolling because you have a game in mind where everyone is average, you may want to forbid certain overpowered class combinations as well, and so on.

@Shin To each his/her own, I completely agree that everyone is free to play the game in whatever way makes them happiest, but the rules of the game can't reflect everyone's personal preferences, and so should reflect balance in my opinion. As for there being nothing to exploit outside of competitive play, the argument is somewhat flawed. It's like saying that it's impossible to cheat in single player, which just doesn't make sense. Exploits are still exploits and cheating is still cheating, even if you're not playing competitively, they just don't necessarily matter. I don't see anything wrong with these things if players choose to do them, but that doesn't change what they are. Interrupting the attack script of a dragon by initiating dialogue constantly as your party kills him is an exploit whether the player is having fun doing it or not, which has nothing to do with whether it's "okay," it's just a classification of an action.

This is just my opinion, and I can see that many people obviously disagree with me, but what I personally would prefer is a balanced point buy system for attributes. And for those that really want to get perfect stats, they're more than welcome to do so via a character editor or the console. Alternatively, a point buy system could be introduced at least as an option for those that preferred it...

I'm curious as I can't remember, does stat allocation come before or after class' selection. It would be ideal if it came before as there would be nothing worse that picking a fighter and then rolling 9 for str and 18 int. you should be able to pick your class based off your stats, if your are prepared to leave your class selection down to fate.

Granted that's only something I'd be willing to do after my first play through after I've played what I really wanted.

@SirBuliwyf Just to clarify, is this question in reference to the suggestion in the original post? If so, he said you could still redistribute your stats as you saw fit, so having a fighter and then rolling those stats would be fine as you could just redistribute them to reverse them w/out needing to re-roll... or did I misunderstand what you were asking?

niklas

@jaysl659 If the option to reroll exists, I don't see it as an exploit - but much like you I'd prefer to limit the number of rerolls, but I'd favour if such option was available in the options menu rather than to decide to limit the number of rerolls myself - I don't have that kind of willpower.

Shin

My opinion is that unless you play competitively, there's nothing to exploit. It's your playthrough - if you think a certain change is fine in your game, then it *is* fine. The only thing that matters is that you get to play it the way you enjoy it the most. If you don't, I'd say you're the one getting exploited - but I can also see how some players take pleasure in the knowledge that everything is done by the book. To each their own.

In multiplayer games, it seems more of an issue of playing with people who approach the game in the same way you do. If you want to forbid them from rerolling because you have a game in mind where everyone is average, you may want to forbid certain overpowered class combinations as well, and so on.

@Shin To each his/her own, I completely agree that everyone is free to play the game in whatever way makes them happiest, but the rules of the game can't reflect everyone's personal preferences, and so should reflect balance in my opinion. As for there being nothing to exploit outside of competitive play, the argument is somewhat flawed. It's like saying that it's impossible to cheat in single player, which just doesn't make sense. Exploits are still exploits and cheating is still cheating, even if you're not playing competitively, they just don't necessarily matter. I don't see anything wrong with these things if players choose to do them, but that doesn't change what they are. Interrupting the attack script of a dragon by initiating dialogue constantly as your party kills him is an exploit whether the player is having fun doing it or not, which has nothing to do with whether it's "okay," it's just a classification of an action.

This is just my opinion, and I can see that many people obviously disagree with me, but what I personally would prefer is a balanced point buy system for attributes. And for those that really want to get perfect stats, they're more than welcome to do so via a character editor or the console. Alternatively, a point buy system could be introduced at least as an option for those that preferred it...

Fair enough, it's really just a matter of semantics though. The way I see it, cheating and modifying aren't the same thing. If no one gets cheated, it's not cheating. Some people might claim that changing the colour or model type of the robe of Vecna because they don't like how it looks is a cheat as well, rather than an alteration of the game to suit a preference.

ElectricMonk

Fair enough, it's really just a matter of semantics though. The way I see it, cheating and modifying aren't the same thing. If no one gets cheated, it's not cheating. Some people might claim that changing the colour or model type of the robe of Vecna because they don't like how it looks is a cheat as well, rather than an alteration of the game to suit a preference.

I'm really not just trying to be argumentative here, but I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone that considered the changing of a colour of an item cheating. Perhaps cheating isn't the best word to describe what I'm talking about, but I think it's undeniable that there is a clear distinction between a superficial alteration, such as changing the color of an item; and a non superficial alteration, such as using the console to give yourself 5mil XP, the latter having an effect on gameplay, while the former only affects aesthetics. Defining them both as alterations due to preference doesn't actually make them the same thing, considering that they do different things and are likely motivated by clearly different reasons, and can also be clearly defined in dissimilar terms as well. (Perhaps I misconstrued your point, since I agree that "cheating and modifying aren't the same thing," but the rest of what you said seemed to conflict with that, were you just citing a hypothetical?)

That being said, we should likely just agree to disagree if necessary as we seem to be arguing semantics here ourselves. Not to mention that there will almost definitely not be any new attribute selection system implemented anyway so ultimately I'll just have to continue to accept the system as it is now.

@niklas I see your point. The reason I call these things (and things such as making a character with 3 INT due to the game not actually accounting for low INT with any downside whatsoever) exploits is because I see them as taking advantage of a limitation of the system rather than original intent. As with everything else on this discussion, this just seems to be a simple difference of opinion in terminology more than anything else.

niklas

@jaysl659 I'll have to agree (literally ) on that one.

Kalindor

I am in the same camp as jaysl659. The stat rolling system as it is now (unless you enforce arbitrary restrictions on the number of rolls) is essentially "put in the time and you can have whatever stats you want." With a point buy system, it becomes "strategically allocate your stat points." I think the latter is definitely preferable, not to mention more expedient.

Shin

Fair enough, it's really just a matter of semantics though. The way I see it, cheating and modifying aren't the same thing. If no one gets cheated, it's not cheating. Some people might claim that changing the colour or model type of the robe of Vecna because they don't like how it looks is a cheat as well, rather than an alteration of the game to suit a preference.

I'm really not just trying to be argumentative here, but I think you'd be hard pressed to find someone that considered the changing of a colour of an item cheating. Perhaps cheating isn't the best word to describe what I'm talking about, but I think it's undeniable that there is a clear distinction between a superficial alteration, such as changing the color of an item; and a non superficial alteration, such as using the console to give yourself 5mil XP, the latter having an effect on gameplay, while the former only affects aesthetics. Defining them both as alterations due to preference doesn't actually make them the same thing, considering that they do different things and are likely motivated by clearly different reasons, and can also be clearly defined in dissimilar terms as well. (Perhaps I misconstrued your point, since I agree that "cheating and modifying aren't the same thing," but the rest of what you said seemed to conflict with that, were you just citing a hypothetical?)

That being said, we should likely just agree to disagree if necessary as we seem to be arguing semantics here ourselves. Not to mention that there will almost definitely not be any new attribute selection system implemented anyway so ultimately I'll just have to continue to accept the system as it is now.

Aye, it was meant hypothetically to bring up another point of view. And yeah, I agree it seems doubtful.

Ravel

As far as we're talking about different stat rolling system possibilities, I wouldn't mind seeing a more hardcore variant of the stat rolling system where you get one roll, your stats are immovable, and you roll before selecting your class.

Crawley

In order to solve this dispute, I believe there should be three options when selecting New Game:
1. Beginner character that would be created using current system
2. Advanced character, where only one roll could be made, although stats could be distributed freely (I don't know if its in ADD2, but in DD3 if character has an avarage skill less than 13, stats should be re-rolled).
3. Hardcore character - the same as in point 2, but with some additional limitations to saves etc.

ElectricMonk

In order to solve this dispute, I believe there should be three options when selecting New Game:
1. Beginner character that would be created using current system
2. Advanced character, where only one roll could be made, although stats could be distributed freely (I don't know if its in ADD2, but in DD3 if character has an avarage skill less than 13, stats should be re-rolled).
3. Hardcore character - the same as in point 2, but with some additional limitations to saves etc.

@Crawley Replace the 3rd option with a balanced stat buy system and I'd agree. To me, the AD&D rules combined with the content of BG are fairly challenging already, and I prefer difficulty along the lines of limiting when/where you can reload and when/where you can sleep. Also, AI enhancements are likely the best way to increase difficulty, if enemy AI acted optimally based on the intelligence of the creature, the game would end up being a lot more tactically challenging.

Crawley

I've meant game saving, not save rolls. Just a clarification

ElectricMonk

@Crawley Ah yes, that makes much more sense, not sure how I didn't get that.

Wolfheart

And for those of us who keep rolling till we get atleast 4 18's let there be an "all 18" button pretty please?

ElectricMonk

@Wolfheart cheating the stat increasing tomes into the game via the console commands is extremely easy and since BG:EE will essentially be the ToB engine, I'm sure it will continue to be. If you don't know how to do this I'd be more than happy to explain it to you.

Dragonfolk2000

BG1 is definitely difficult enough starting at lower levels. I recently stumbled into a group of bandits who were armed with ice arrows. It did not take them long to decimate my party who had yet to find a magic weapon... that they could use.

Wolfheart

@jaysl659 Assuming the Ipad version will have access to the console. Not to mention, having to learn to use the clua console (or using shadowkeeper) to overcome limited/excessive rolling seems like a bad solution. But a simple check box... Gosh, if all checkboxes we fans ask for gets implemented the option interface is gonna be impossible to navigate ^^*.