Charm/sleep resistance vs shorty saves

Cactus

Which is better? The shorties get a nice save vs. spell, does that mean they eventually is more resistant to sleep/charm spells than elves?

(I think about rolling an assassin, either an elf or a halfling)

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Corvino

At level 1 my gnome fighter/illusionist failed to interrupt Bassilus' hold person twice, but saved on both occasions. At this point I had an epiphany: Shorty saves = win. At level 6/5 with a bit of gear he has wand/spell saves of about 4 & 3.

Dwarf & halfling saves include a save vs. death bonus as well as spells and wands which is even better.

mjs

about saves, what numbers are best? lower, closest to 0? can saves go into minuses?

Corvino

For saves (And THAC0, and AC) lower numbers are better. I think you can get negative saves but couldn't swear to it. This would be very hard to achieve in BG1 anyway.

Oxford_Guy

Assuming you have reasonable Con (e.g. 14 or above gives shorties +4 to saves, 18 gives +5) the shorty saves are *much* better than the elf charm/sleep resistance as covers you for more spells (*and* poison/death, in the case of halflings and dwarves), but elves get +1 THAC0 with *all* swords (including katanas, scimitars, two-handed, short sword, *not* just long swords) and all non-crossbow) nows, whereas halflings just get +1 THAC0 for slings.

Halflings get better racial thieving bonuses, but can't have 18 starting strength. Both elves and halflings can have 19 Dex.

I prefer elves for Assassins, as if not playing a multi or dual thief, they need all the THAC0 help that they can get!

emjay

It's not that hard in bg1 with potions. Invulnerability pot gives you -5 from all saves. Magic protect potion is even better, if you check your stats after one they are all like -20

Oxford_Guy

emjay said:

It's not that hard in bg1 with potions. Invulnerability pot gives you -5 from all saves. Magic protect potion is even better, if you check your stats after one they are all like -20

There's also the Greenstone Amulet, which is pretty OP

Cactus

Oxford_Guy said:

Assuming you have reasonable Con (e.g. 14 or above gives shorties +4 to saves, 18 gives +5) the shorty saves are *much* better than the elf charm/sleep resistance as covers you for more spells (*and* poison/death, in the case of halflings and dwarves), but elves get +1 THAC0 with *all* swords (including katanas, scimitars, two-handed, short sword, *not* just long swords) and all non-crossbow) nows, whereas halflings just get +1 THAC0 for slings.

Halflings get better racial thieving bonuses, but can't have 18 starting strength. Both elves and halflings can have 19 Dex.

I prefer elves for Assassins, as if not playing a multi or dual thief, they need all the THAC0 help that they can get!

Actually, if you use the STR tome, it is a HUGE difference:

- Halfling + tome (STR 18) = THAC0 + 1 DMG +2
- Elf + tome (STR 19) + sword bonus = THAC0 + 4 DMG +7 (add backstab multiplier and die)

Even if the Halfling get the Gauntlets of Ogre Power 18/00, the elf could use the same space for some of the gauntlets giving ekstra THAC0...

Ranged: Darts+poison : That is a VERY effective way to interrupt a spellcaster

Oxford_Guy

Cactus said:

Oxford_Guy said:

Assuming you have reasonable Con (e.g. 14 or above gives shorties +4 to saves, 18 gives +5) the shorty saves are *much* better than the elf charm/sleep resistance as covers you for more spells (*and* poison/death, in the case of halflings and dwarves), but elves get +1 THAC0 with *all* swords (including katanas, scimitars, two-handed, short sword, *not* just long swords) and all non-crossbow) nows, whereas halflings just get +1 THAC0 for slings.

Halflings get better racial thieving bonuses, but can't have 18 starting strength. Both elves and halflings can have 19 Dex.

I prefer elves for Assassins, as if not playing a multi or dual thief, they need all the THAC0 help that they can get!

Actually, if you use the STR tome, it is a HUGE difference:

- Halfling + tome (STR 18) = THAC0 + 1 DMG +2
- Elf + tome (STR 19) + sword bonus = THAC0 + 4 DMG +7 (add backstab multiplier and die)

Indeed, though I didn't think the Strength damage bonus got multiplied for backstabs? Still, +7 damage is good whichever way you look at it!

Cactus said:

Even if the Halfling get the Gauntlets of Ogre Power 18/00, the elf could use the same space for some of the gauntlets giving ekstra THAC0...

Quite - in fact there are gloves in BGEE that add +1 THAC0 *and* +2 damage (works with ranged too - especially nasty with darts!)

Cactus said:

Ranged: Darts+poison : That is a VERY effective way to interrupt a spellcaster

Yes, especially with the gloves I mention above, though I think I still prefer shortbows, especially if an elf (extra +1 THAC0) - only 2 APR, but you have a wider range of ammo options and the +x to hit/damage from the launcher stacks with the +x to hit/damage from the arrows. Also in BG2 the +1 Tuigan Short Bow get's 3 APR, which is as good as darts

Throwing daggers can also be effective if you have high Strength, as have 2 APR and add the strength damage bonus (unlike darts), though there are no magic ones in BGEE, and in BG2 vanilla throwing daggers don't get the strength damage bonus (only throwing axes do), though this might change in BG2EE (hope so!)

Cactus

Halflings also get a +1 THAC0 with darts... I don't know if this is a bug...

Oxford_Guy

Cactus said:

Halflings also get a +1 THAC0 with darts... I don't know if this is a bug...

I read elsewhere that this is just a bug with a +1 THAC0 for darts showing on the character record, but it has no effect in-game. It's a pity in a way, as would make sense for halflings, who in PnP get a bonus for using *any* thrown weapon, and would make them better assassins (for 3 APR poisioned attacks).

Djimmy

Oxford_Guy said:

Assuming you have reasonable Con (e.g. 14 or above gives shorties +4 to saves, 18 gives +5) the shorty saves are *much* better than the elf charm/sleep resistance as covers you for more spells (*and* poison/death, in the case of halflings and dwarves), but elves get +1 THAC0 with *all* swords (including katanas, scimitars, two-handed, short sword, *not* just long swords) and all non-crossbow) nows, whereas halflings just get +1 THAC0 for slings.

Halflings get better racial thieving bonuses, but can't have 18 starting strength. Both elves and halflings can have 19 Dex.

I prefer elves for Assassins, as if not playing a multi or dual thief, they need all the THAC0 help that they can get!

Is the "shorty CON save bonus" accumulated each level, or just one time?

Corvino

It's a one-off bonus based on Con and recalculated at each level up, so if you use the Con tome your saves won't change until you level up.

It does appear to stack with your level bonuses.

ZanathKariashi

It's just a one time thing, unless your Con happens to go up enough to qualify for another +1. And yes, it's superior to the elf's charm resistance. By lvl 5, you're immune to sleep (not to mention being an extremely rare spell anyway), and charm is one of the easiest countered statuses (and it's resistance, NOT immunity. there's still a 10% chance per spell or 70% chance for half-elves to still be charmed regardless), meanwhile the save bonus applies to everything except polymorph, which...I don't think I've EVER been polymorphed in the whole series, and stacks with class saves and equipment, allowing you to reach effective immunity to spells that allow saves by around ~300,000 total xp, classes depending.

And Elves gaining +1 with all swords is a known bug as well (only supposed to be Long/Short swords and Longbows, not 2hd swords, bastard swords, scimitars/wakazashi/ninja-to, katana, and daggers)

Oxford_Guy

ZanathKariashi said:

It's just a one time thing, unless your Con happens to go up enough to qualify for another +1. And yes, it's superior to the elf's charm resistance. By lvl 5, you're immune to sleep (not to mention being an extremely rare spell anyway), and charm is one of the easiest countered statuses (and it's resistance, NOT immunity. there's still a 10% chance per spell or 70% chance for half-elves to still be charmed regardless), meanwhile the save bonus applies to everything except polymorph, which...I don't think I've EVER been polymorphed in the whole series, and stacks with class saves and equipment, allowing you to reach effective immunity to spells that allow saves by around ~300,000 total xp, classes depending.

And Elves gaining +1 with all swords is a known bug as well (only supposed to be Long/Short swords and Longbows, not 2hd swords, bastard swords, scimitars/wakazashi/ninja-to, katana, and daggers)

Sure, but we're talking about what's in BGEE now. BTW daggers don't get the +1 elf THAC0 bonus in BGEE

Oxford_Guy

Corvino said:

It's a one-off bonus based on Con and recalculated at each level up, so if you use the Con tome your saves won't change until you level up.

It does appear to stack with your level bonuses.

BTW it's also worth pointing out that an HP gains from Con are applied retrospectively for *all* levels and immediately (unlike the shorty save bonus, which only changes on level-up), so there's no need to rush to get it at level 1.

Oxford_Guy

If wanting 18 starting strength (which will be 19 by end game) but still good saves, a Gnome could be the way to go for an assassin, as you still get the shorty Con-based saves vs. spell, if not vs. death/poison, though a halfling can have 19 starting Dex, which is nice, though you can pick up the Dex tome pretty much as soon as you can enter Baldur's Gate city mid-game, and 20 Dex is not much better than 19 (except in BG2 where 21 Dex does get better AC and ranged THAC0 than 19/20 Dex).

Halflings have higher minimum racial stats, so are slightly easier to roll for than gnomes, however.

BTW if stillwanting to go the elf route, the Greenstone Amulet will make many saves vs. spell unnecessary...

NB: Racial Thieving skill bonuses can be compared here:
http://www.pocketplane.net/volothamp/thief.htm

As you can see, halflings get the best hide in shadows/move silently bonuses (which are the important ones for an assassin), even before you take Dex into account. Gnomes are better with traps and detect illusions. Also, if going the gnome route, I'm always tempted to take illusionist/thief (CG - with Fairy Dragon familiar) instead of a pure class thief/assassin, as that combo rocks!