Help with a bard
GaNoN
Member Posts: 151
Never created one. im currently holding a 94 roll ^^
What stats should i give him?
What stats should i give him?
1
Comments
Dex: 18
Con: 16, unless you want to use the Claw of Kazgaroth, then go 18
Int: Personally I go with 18, for the convenience. You could probably do with less if you don't mind using potions, or turning the game difficulty down when writing spells.
Wisdom: at 10 you get no penalty to lore, otherwise I'd say 7 (lore drop is constant from 7 to 9, but drops again when you go lower than 7)
Cha: I think 15 (the minimum) is fine. When you want to do some shopping, just cast Friends, which will bump you up to 20 or 21 CHA, allowing for the max CHA-based discount.
With a roll of 94, you have the perfect amount to do:
18
18
18
18
7
15
Which is exactly what I did on my last run
Str - 13
Dec - 18
Con - 16
Int - 18
Wis - 10
Cha - 18
I put strength at 13 so he could use the new halberd when he does decide to get in there.
i mean he can only put 1 pip on it
Im using:
Orc Wizard Slayer
Orc Priest / Fighter
Gnome Illusionist / Thief (he will be using the speed light xbow + Magic)
And 4th player would be a Bard (Songs against fear, maybe some ranged support also and some weak mage spells )
Something to note is that a bard is something of a high maintenance class; if you want to get the most out of one, you'll want to be make sure you're keeping him busy casting spells or using wands or things like that, something which I often forgot to do. Otherwise, he's just a very inferior fighter.
As for weapons, I prefer darts for ranged, but that does leave you with the inventory management and not automatically using the next quiver. Depends on how often you want to re-supply and how much stuff you usually carry around.
so with my party setup what do u think its the best viable option for the bard?
And you're always best off picking half-elf for any kind of bard. Only humans and half-elves can be bards, and since the only advantage to being human is dualclassing, which you can't with a bard, half-elf is the better choice because of sleep/charm resistance and a bonus to pickpocket.
But an unkitted bard is bland, uninteresting, and weak. Their song is a decent buff but requires the bard to do nothing but sing it, which likely isn't useful. Their spellcasting is inferior to that of a mage, especially by BG2. And their pickpocketing is hardly relevant, and nothing that a thief with a potion can't replicate.
You can "song twist" a little if your careful and get a few ranged shots or a melee attack with a fast weapon in before the end of the round and resume singing without "breaking" the song, but it's tricky and not usually worth it.
The default bard song is not very good, all it does is:
1st Level: +2 morale per round (helps prevent morale loss and recovery of morale after Horror etc.)
15th Level: +1 luck, +2 morale per round
20th Level: +2 luck, immunity to fear, immunity to morale loss
If still wanting full pickpockets and lore *and* a decent song, I think the Jester is much more fun (as the song is offensive in nature, is even good for soloing - I'm currently doing a duo run with Jester and just Safana, as still want to be able to deal with traps and steal loot), especially as you can sing any Bard song whilst invisible:
1st level: Enemies must save vs. Spell with a +2 bonus (i.e. this is easier for enemies to save against than +0, it used to be +4 in vanilla BG, though!) or be confused.
15th level: Enemies must save vs. Spell with a +2 bonus or be confused, and must save vs. Spell or be slowed.
20th level: Enemies must save vs. Spell with a +2 bonus or be confused, save vs. Spell with a +2 bonus or be knocked unconscious, and must save vs. Spell or be slowed.
NB: confused enemies often attack each other, especially if they can't see another target (i.e. if you're invisble), though you don't get XP for enemies that kill each other - doesn't matter for minions, though.
BTW Jester song *ignores any magic resistance*! This is a very good thiing.
Softening up enemies first with Glitterdust and/or Doom helps, as does Greater Malison later.
Skald's have the best party-buff song, and also get +1 THAC0 *and* +1 damage to all attacks (so go high APR weapons, e.g. Darts, especially as you can combine with the Skald song buff, if you micromanage your attacks), but only get 1/4 of pickpockets skill, so unless soloing, your thief will probably be better at this. They do get full lore, though. They play a more passive role than Jesters, as really need to stand back and sing to be most effective. Their song is like this:
1st level: Grants allies (and your Familiar, and yourself!) a +2 bonus to hit and damage rolls, and a -2 bonus to AC.
15th level: Grants allies a +4 bonus to hit and damage rolls, a -4 bonus to AC, and immunity to fear.
20th level: Grants allies a +4 bonus to hit and damage rolls, a -4 bonus to AC, and immunity to fear, stun, and confusion.
Blades have the worst song, as just get the Level 1 default bard song and this doesn't improve until they can acquire the HLA Enhanced bard song (as can all the other kits) at Level 24 (3 million XP), probably later, as you will likely want Use Any Item first. They also only get 1/2 normal Lore and 1/2 normal Pickpockets, but can get respectable scores in both at higher levels. They *do*, of course, get the awesome Offensive Spin and slightly less useful defensive spin once per day for every 4 levels:
OFFENSIVE SPIN: During the next 24 seconds, the Blade's movement rate doubles and he gains a +2 bonus to hit and damage rolls as well as an extra attack per round. All attacks deal maximum damage for the duration. Offensive Spin may not be used in conjunction with the Haste or Improved Haste spells.
DEFENSIVE SPIN: During the next 24 seconds, the Blade is rooted to the spot and gains a +1 bonus to Armor Class per level, up to a maximum of +10.
They also can put up to 3 pips into two-weapon fighting, which is great in BG2 (or even late-ish in BGEE, if dual-wielding Drizzt's Scimitars...), wheras other bard kits can only put on. Blade are probably the strongest bard kit, but also the least bard-like IMHO, and I much prefer Jesters or Skalds.
BTW for my current Jester duo game with Safana I rolled CHARNAME like this (I only gave myself the best of 20 rolls to pick from, to make it more of a challenge). There are some minor spoilers in this, so have tagged it:
15 Str (so I can bluff my way into the Bandit Camp at least, and carry stuff, can buff to 18/50 with strength spell, later to 18/00 with Tazok's Gloves, which a Bard can use. Will be 16 base Str with the tome late game)
18 Dex (19 with a tome by end of game)
15 Con (raised to 16 with the Con tome, which is easy to obtain early on)
15 Int (+5 lore, 11 spells in the spellbook/level, 65% spell learn, but can raise to 19 and 95% learn with a potion of genius, higher with the red potion, to be saved for Stoneskin and Greater Malison. Can get to 16 Int with a tome in Baldur's gate.)
7 Wis (to get to 10 by the end of BGEE with tomes, so no lore penalty for BG2 and only -10 in BGEE)
15 Cha (can still get to 21 and max 75% shop discount with Friends, can raise to 16 with a tome early on, to 18 with Algernon's Cloak - would give 18+6 = 24 Charisma with Friends!)
Proficiencies:
Level 1:
Staff * (bought the +3 staff as soon as I could afford it, does blunt damage, so better THAC0 against armoured opponents than a slashing or even piercing weapon and less monsters resistant to it. Also can stand in the second row and still attack reasonably safely, if with a party)
Shortbow * (quicker than longbows, for interupting casters and song twisting, can get the +1 shortbow early on, and a +2 one later, wide range of ammo options and in vanilla BG2 the available magic shortbows are better than longbows)
Level 4:
Dagger * (for +2 Dagger of Venom, to use vs. casters, and later for Werebane)
Level 8:
Not sure yet, either single-weapon fighing, two-handed weapon style or possibly katanas to prepare for BG2
Have gone Neutral Evil alignment (partly for he Dust Mephit Familair, which gets Glitterdust x1/day and Glass Dust x 2/day - the former works great with Jester song, as reduces subsequent saves by -4 for enemies that fail their +0 save vs. Glitterdust - they're effectively blinded, also makes any enemies who fail their save visible, if invisble before)
Bards do require a little more micromanagement than other classes, but I don't mind that for CHARNAME, they're not really a powergaming class, I think Fighter/Mages or gnome Illusionist/Thieves are stronger, but I think they're fun to play!
Some other bard tips:
Don't forget you can use wands and cast from scroll wearing chainmail (and can sell and recharge cheaply due to high Charisma + Friends, or you can just steal them back fully charged, if you have good pickpockets and/or use Potions of Mastery Thievery, but you can only do this once per wand, though there is one store that will buy stolen goods).
See "Bards with Wands" for more tips (not spoiler free):
http://www.sorcerers.net/Games/dl.php?s=BG&f=BG/BG1-Bards_with_Wands.zip
Early on the Shield Amulet is good (and relatively cheap and it can be sold and repurchased or stolen fully charged - more charges than it started with, in fact, though more expensive) if you still want decent AC and be able to cast, later there is some elven chain mail you can cast in, but only if you have a particular NPC in your party.
NB: *always* sell high value items at stores that are easy to steal from, where possible e.g. Nashkel Carnival, or failing that, Nashkel stores, as can steal them back later (though only one store will buy stolen goods:
Black Lilly's in Baldur's gate. You can't steal goods from Black Lilly's and sell them back to her BTW!
BTW The only store that buys wands and "allows" theft is the southern General Store in SW Baldur's Gate.
I forgot to mention, there is one Bard-specific magic item in BGEE:
Greagan's Harp - can be bought in the Inn in Ulgoth's Beard as soon as you have enough cash for it.
Set number of charges (but can be sold and bought back fully charged, don't think you can steal it from anywhere that will buy it, though)
Domination as per 5th level Mage Spell (-2 to saves)
* = Bard-specific
Alchemy
Avoid Death
Enhanced Bard Song *
Evasion
Greater Evasion
Magic Flute *
Scribe Scrolls
Set Exploding Trap
Set Spike Trap
Set Time Trap
Use Any Item
(see: http://www.gamebanshee.com/baldursgateii/classes/bard.php )
(Bards are supposed to be proficient in any weapon or item (but not shields or armor) usable by warriors in general, but not limited to specific class (so if it's useable by fighters, paladins, and rangers, Bards could use it). But unlike warriors, don't get natural extra attacks, aside from Dual-wielding which has ALSO been heavily nerf'd for rogues in general (The Blades ability to place 3 points is supposed to be a basic thief/bard ability, while Blades are supposed to begin with the equivalent of *** in two weapon style at creation...but don't...because the developers were heavily biased against bards for some reason...their stuff barely works at all, and aside from the Blade's offensive spin being MUCH stronger then it should be (but still a joke compared to other kits' abilities), most of the rest are getting fairly screwed, as PnP Bard (or Skald) song does NOT require the Bard to keep singing (The jester's does however, and Blade's shouldn't have a song at ALL). Continuing to sing maintains the effect, but the actual duration once they stop is supposed to be 1 round per Bard level (Or in the Skald's case, it lasts until they take damage (they can sing while fighting in PnP, but the inspirational effect is lost if damaged (Not as bad as it seems as PnP Skald can wear up armor up to plate)) if engaging in melee, or 1 round per level if they stay at range and avoid direct combat, since they aren't as inspiring if they're hanging back like a coward).
I never put more 13 int. It's a MASSIVE waste of points on a class that gain effectively no benefit from high int and already has a lot of high requirements, if you want to be a proper jack-of-all-trades. IF proper High Level spell casting progression was in place AND minimum int for casting was enforced, I might see a point going higher (Bards can cast up to 8th level spells in 2nd Edition PnP, and are only slightly behind mages in spell capacity (1 or 2 spells per day, vs a plain mage) for spell levels 1-6 at lvl 30), but 13 int is the minimum requirement (if it was enforced) for 6th level casting (their current max), and gives 9 spells per spell level (4 more then a sorcerer gets and sorcerers can cover every situation with their limited spells known, so 9 is overkill, and unlike a sorc you can replace spells whenever you no longer need them), and is really no different in chance to learn. Both are in your favor, and neither is close to 100% (100% requires 23+ int), so it's pointless to have high int. And if you're just gonna reload, play on normal, or chug a bunch of int potions, there was no point having high int in the first place.
See: http://readme.spellholdstudios.net/readme_rr.html
It's mostly the blade that I don't like. While it's more like PnP, they didn't change Offensive spin to a next hit, no save fear for 5 rounds, add a save or take damage equal to Bard level for each attack against the bard while defensive spin is up nor did they give blades called shot like they're supposed to have (PnP blades can make called shots with hurled weapons, such as darts or thrown daggers and axes). Though replacing epic bard song with WWA was a nice touch that I can agree is pretty fair (and is a change I feel would've worked well in the base game also. The Swashy got WWA instead of assassination since they can't backstab, so why not give blades WWA instead of epic bard song, whose song is NEVER supposed to become better as a class disadvantage.
Though they didn't fix the basic bard song, unless I just over-looked it. They just clarified what it actually does at each level, and changed epic bard song to be nice, but not as strong as the Epic Skald song. Though just being able to put *** in two weapon massively increases their offensive potential, even without speed weapons since their off-hand actually has an ok chance of landing.
1st Level: +2 morale per round (i.e. removes fear)
15th Level: +1 luck, +2 morale per round (i.e. remove fear)
20th Level: +2 luck, immunity to fear, immunity to morale loss
In Rogue Rebalancing it does this:
1st: +1 to hit and all saving throws (i.e. +1 Luck basically, though perhaps without the +5% to thieving etc.), song raises morale
9th: +2 to hit and all saving throws (i.e. +2 Luck basically), song removes fear
18th: +3 to hit and all saving throw (i.e. +3 Luck basically), song protects from fear Indeed!
And the +5 duration would be a buff compared to PnP at pre-5, equal at 5, and becoming slowly nerfed as their level rose. (a lvl 10 pnp Bard's song is supposed to last 10 rounds, but since they don't have to sing for 3 rounds and it gives all 3 bonuses at once, I feel that would be a nice compromise.
What I'd really like to see is a Proper Bard/Skald song.
Replace the current bard song action with Counter-song (since it's mechanically the same, just with different effects (Gives anyone effected a 2nd chance to save vs certain command-based spells (charms, dominations, Command, power words, similar spells) if they fail, or a chance to save if the spell doesn't normally allow a save (like Command), and each round allows the effected characters to save vs spell to remove any mind-affecting or fear effect.
The jester song gets a new button, but the function remains the same as current, since the only thing "wrong" is the effect, rather then the way it works (Jesters are actually required to keep taunting to maintain the effect, and lets face it, while the confuse is a bit underwhelming, the slow and incapacitate effects later are just broken, so it's pretty fair), as well as Tell Joke action (functions identical to counter song) in place of counter song, that allows allies to save vs spells to end a confusion or hostile berserk effect each round.
Then Bards and Skald get a new action for their main Song. The Bard versions allows selection of a +1 hit, +1 save, or +2 morale song, with a 3 round cast, 10ft/level radius, and 1 round/level duration, but can't be used in LoS of an enemy (which is the best way of handling the PnP limitation).
The Skald song functions identical aside from it's effect, but instead of picking the song's bonus (technically they choose from 6 effects and every 3 levels can add an additional effect per song till all are applied at 15), they simply get +2 morale at lvl 1, lvl 3 +1 hit, level 6 +1 damage, level 9 +1 AC, lvl 12 ++1 save/4 levels, lvl 15 +1 Temp HP/Level. All effects are cumulative. So by 15, the Skald song applies +2 morale, +1 hit, +1 damage, +1 AC, +15 Temp HP, +3 Saves (Much more powerful then current, since the fact it lasts 1 round/level (15 rounds in this case) allows the Skald to contribute not only a whole party buff, but his melee/ranged/spell casting, without the headache of song twisting. And is completely PnP Legit)
And then replace Epic Bard Song, with Mastery of Song (Bard) (1 round cast, +1 Hit, +1 Save, +2 Morale, 10ft/level, Duration is 5 rounds +1 per level) and Mastery of Song (Skald) (1 round cast, Same bonuses as a 15+ skald (the HP and Save bonues continue to scale based on Skald Level), 10ft radius/level , duration is 5 rounds +1 per level)