Max backstabbing weapons for dual-wielding Fighter/Thief (spoilers)
Lemernis
Member, Moderator Posts: 4,318
Okay, so I'm reading that a dual-wielding Fighter/Thief's backstab applies the backstab multiplier only to the faster of the two weapons. Presumably the slower of the two weapons damage is also added, though. (Please advise if this is incorrect.)
(Edit - Note to self: next time before posting something this elaborate take time to test premise in CLUA Console! Reportedly this info about the faster of the two dual-wielded weapons scoring the hit in BG:EE was incorrect. I have not confirmed either way, though. The computer I play BG:EE with is being serviced.)
So if you're seeking to max backstab damage, it looks like you want to find the fastest weapon that does the most damage. (Edit: Reportedly this is not the case.)
For reference sake, here is the BG:EE table for weapons.
Bear in mind that a Thief can only backstab with Club, Dagger, Long Sword, Short Sword, Scimitar, Wakizashi, Ninjato, Katana, and Staff. Staff is of course a two-handed weapon however, so it can't be dual-wielded.
In terms of speed these are the normal weapons:
Speed Factor 2
Dagger
Speed Factor 3
Short Sword
Wakizashi
Speed Factor 4
Club
Ninjato
Katana
Speed Factor 5
Long Sword
Scimitar
and for reference sake here is a reference for the vanilla BG1 weapons, and here is the list of the new content enchanted items in BG:EE (contains spoilers).
Some enchanted weapons are faster than their normal versions:
Dagger of Venom has a speed factor of 0 (rather than 2). THAC0 +3, damage 3-6 with up to 15 additional poison damage (6 poison damage per round).
Longtooth Dagger + 2 has a speed factor of 0 (rather than 2). THAC0 +2, damage 3-8.
Short Sword of Backstabbing +3 has a speed factor of 0 (rather than 3). THAC0 +3, damage 4-9.
The Whistler Short Sword +2 has a speed factor of 1 (rather than 3). THAC0 +2, damage 3-8.
Drizzt's Scimtars +3 both have a speed factor of 2 (rather than 5). THAC0 +3, damage 4-11.
Wakizashi +1 has a speed factor of 2 (rather than 3). THAC0 +1, damage 2-9.
Varscona Long Sword + 2 has a speed factor of 3 (rather than 4). THAC0 +2, damage 3-10.
Katana + 1 has a speed factor of 3 (rather than 4). THAC0 +1, damage 2-11.
Rashad's Talon Scimitar +2 has a speed factor of 3 (rather than 4). THAC0 +2, damage 3-10.
Ninjato + 1 has a speed factor of 3 (rather than 4). THAC0 +1, damage 2-9.
And although the new enchanted clubs aren't faster than normal clubs, here they are for reference sake:
Club +1 has a speed factor of 4. THAC0 +1, damage 2-7.
Night Club +1 has a speed factor of 4. THAC0 +1, damage 2-7,
Mighty Oak +2 has a speed factor of 4. THAC0 +2, damage 3-8.
Anyway, what would your weapons prof choices be for a dual-wielding Fighter/Thief?
(Edit - Note to self: next time before posting something this elaborate take time to test premise in CLUA Console! Reportedly this info about the faster of the two dual-wielded weapons scoring the hit in BG:EE was incorrect. I have not confirmed either way, though. The computer I play BG:EE with is being serviced.)
So if you're seeking to max backstab damage, it looks like you want to find the fastest weapon that does the most damage. (Edit: Reportedly this is not the case.)
For reference sake, here is the BG:EE table for weapons.
Bear in mind that a Thief can only backstab with Club, Dagger, Long Sword, Short Sword, Scimitar, Wakizashi, Ninjato, Katana, and Staff. Staff is of course a two-handed weapon however, so it can't be dual-wielded.
In terms of speed these are the normal weapons:
Speed Factor 2
Dagger
Speed Factor 3
Short Sword
Wakizashi
Speed Factor 4
Club
Ninjato
Katana
Speed Factor 5
Long Sword
Scimitar
and for reference sake here is a reference for the vanilla BG1 weapons, and here is the list of the new content enchanted items in BG:EE (contains spoilers).
Some enchanted weapons are faster than their normal versions:
Dagger of Venom has a speed factor of 0 (rather than 2). THAC0 +3, damage 3-6 with up to 15 additional poison damage (6 poison damage per round).
Longtooth Dagger + 2 has a speed factor of 0 (rather than 2). THAC0 +2, damage 3-8.
Short Sword of Backstabbing +3 has a speed factor of 0 (rather than 3). THAC0 +3, damage 4-9.
The Whistler Short Sword +2 has a speed factor of 1 (rather than 3). THAC0 +2, damage 3-8.
Drizzt's Scimtars +3 both have a speed factor of 2 (rather than 5). THAC0 +3, damage 4-11.
Wakizashi +1 has a speed factor of 2 (rather than 3). THAC0 +1, damage 2-9.
Varscona Long Sword + 2 has a speed factor of 3 (rather than 4). THAC0 +2, damage 3-10.
Katana + 1 has a speed factor of 3 (rather than 4). THAC0 +1, damage 2-11.
Rashad's Talon Scimitar +2 has a speed factor of 3 (rather than 4). THAC0 +2, damage 3-10.
Ninjato + 1 has a speed factor of 3 (rather than 4). THAC0 +1, damage 2-9.
And although the new enchanted clubs aren't faster than normal clubs, here they are for reference sake:
Club +1 has a speed factor of 4. THAC0 +1, damage 2-7.
Night Club +1 has a speed factor of 4. THAC0 +1, damage 2-7,
Mighty Oak +2 has a speed factor of 4. THAC0 +2, damage 3-8.
Anyway, what would your weapons prof choices be for a dual-wielding Fighter/Thief?
Post edited by Lemernis on
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Comments
I think you are imagining BG works like some MMOs, and off hand weapon damage is added to your main attack.
This is not the case, it is resolved as a completly seperate attack with it's own to hit roll (which may be resolved before your main hand attack if the off hand weapon is faster).
Backstab can only happen on the first attack out of stealth, whichever hand that might be.
Is APR a factor?
Since you can only ever have one FIRST attack, APR is not a factor. You will still get you additional attacks in that round, but they won't be backstabs*.
*If you somehow re-stealth mid-round, such as someone casting invisibility on you, you MAY be able to have an additional backstab, I'm not sure.
No change was done there.
Either you go for the +3 staff for the highest damage (1d6+3 +1 from specialization) or you go for the shortsword of backstabbing +3 (1d6 + 3 damage) for ease of use and better speed factor
Note that the best backstab weapon in BG1 is the staff of striking, but that it has charges, so you can't use it recklessly.
Staves in general are a good choice, because as said earlier, APR and Speed Factor don't really matter, and neither do offhands. 2h Specialization has the benefit of double the chance for a critical strike, too, and a critical backstab is the most damage you will ever do.
While it's true that Staff of Striking has limited charges, you can just as well use the regular Staff+3 (which can be acquired very early in the game). It deals more damage than pretty much anything save for Drizzt's Scimitars, all the while retaining the double-crit from 2h Specialization (provided you have put two pips into it). For those few tough enemies you really want to DESTROY with a backstab, you can spend a charge on your Staff of Striking. Watch those chunks fly!
In BG2 staves are even better, since the best staff in the game (Staff of the Ram+6) is not only the best weapon to backstab with, but one of the most damaging weapons in the game, period. Of course, that also means that all the really hard enemies are immune to backstabs...
It's a little weird that thieves do so well with staves of all things. You'd expect daggers and the likes to get some sort of backstab bonus, but I guess knocking someone over the head is just so much more effective.
Speed factor matters when dual-wielding; the lower the speed factor, the sooner in a round the weapon strikes. If your offhand has a lower speed factor than your main hand, it should strike first, i.e. be the backstab-attack. This is likely not something you want happening, as offhand attacks often carry penalties (to THAC0, damage, or both). Thus, if you are dual-wielding, make sure the lower speed factor weapon is in your main hand! Or just unequip your offhand briefly.
Other than for dual-wielding, I don't see speed factor being too relevant. A quicker strike is of course nice for various reasons, but there aren't really any extremely unwieldy weapons that you could backstab with anyway.
Another thing of note: the Assassination HLA in BG2/ToB treats every attack as a backstab for one round. Using that ability, APR becomes *extremely* important! But that's really the only time.
This is something you've verified via attack rolls?
Another case where I wonder if speed factor makes a difference is with ranged weapons to disrupt spellcasters. For example, hurling darts (speed factor 2) versus a heavy crossbow (speed factor 10) should make a difference that will show up in the game.
In your example, yes, the fighter with the faster weapon would win more often on average, assuming everything else is equal. When they are both down to the last HP, the faster weapon will strike and kill the other guy before he has a chance to hit back with his slower weapon. Note that the difference in speed has to be high enough to compensate for the delay between the hit and the HP getting subtracted, though of course it would be 0 in an ideal environment. There are several instances where speed factor matters, yours is one of the more common examples. I was simply saying that for backstabbing, speed factor is largely irrelevant outside of the cases I mentioned. But since we're dealing with a specialized case here (backstab), many things will have a different relevance than they would have in general combat.
The manual states:
The main-hand weapon will always be faster. Test it out. Enable to-hit rolls, get a dagger and a sword, and start whacking at something. It makes it very clear: Main-hand attacks first, regardless of weapon speed.
In fact, if you have 2 attacks from being a Fighter and having weapon proficiencies, the main hand weapon will attack twice, then the off-hand weapon attacks. Yes, I have actually tested this.
The only way it is possible that the off-hand weapon will be used for backstabbing is if you stealth in the middle of a round after having used your main hand attacks, and even then, I'm not sure it would actually work.
I would strongly advise against short swords for bg1 because by the time you aquire the sword of backstabbing you have completed 99% of the game.
With this approach a rogue can solo most dungeons going forward to scout for traps and then leading mobs back to the party but using each corner or bend for a backstab means that not many mobs actually see the party.
I was a convert upon hitting the demon knight for backstabs from my 2 rogues totaling 80 or so damage making that fight a breeze, it's possible that I ended up chunking him.
For BG1, Staff of Striking is easily the best backstabbing weapon, but like the others have mentioned, it has charges (25 I think?). Like @Wowo said, you can recharge it by selling it to a vendor and buying it back, but it doesn't really make sense from a RP/logical perspective and you might consider it a little cheesy. Like the Staff of the Ram, it's buried deep in the expansion dungeon (5th level of Durlag's Tower), so getting it early enough for it to matter might be a struggle.
As far as Weapon Speed Factor goes, it's benefits are mostly marginal, but there is one notable advantage of having a fast weapon. In the case that you miss your backstab, you'll still have a little time before you become revealed. Within that time frame, you can run out of sight and restealth without being caught - especially if you have Boots of Speed.
Honestly, if BG2 is in the equation, I'll probably stick with Longswords and Scimitars/Ninja-to/Wakizashi. Plenty of options, solid damage, and offhanding Belm/Scarlet Ninja-to is amazing for auto-attacking (you will out DPS Staff of the Ram if you have good strength). Drizzt's scimitars are the next best thing after Staff of Striking. Daggers are great for BG1 if you don't care about maximum possible backstab damage, because Dagger of Venom's poison would kill just about anything you don't instagib. Katana is a good option in BG2, as well.
I managed to get Grandmaster in staves.
Using the +3 staff, at max level, my backstabs were doing an average of 60-70 damage at x4.
Damage-wise, you get :
1d6 + 3 from the staff
+2 from your gloves
+5 from your specialization (HUGE bonus, basically doubles your damage)
+1 from the 2h specialisation.
That's 1d6 + 11 getting multiplied.
Then you have the strength bonus (That isn't multiplied, unfortunately)
Average damage without strength damage is 58
With some potions, and a lucky roll, I had crits for 150.
I managed to get my unbuffed thaco down to about 5-6 or so, made the game a breeze with the boots of speed.
Basically, I chunked pretty much every creature I fought.
And I could still switch the +hide shadow thief studded leather I was using for a full plate and a +2 ring to get down to AC -7 when backstab wasn't the best available option.
For others, it's because that long sword is more in demand by the other members of your party. Gotta spread those top end items around.