Disfunctioning reputation bogging the rpg element

Azaloom

I bought the EE three days ago and I’ve already spent 20+ hours on it . I would have quite a few bugs to report which I don’t know if they have already been reported or not, but this one IMO is especially worth reporting. I don’t know if this is present in the original game or not. I have the 1998 game’s paper manual besides with me on the table as I play and it lists all the things that should decrease reputation. For example as for a reputation level 18 group: Killing an innocent -9, Injuring an innocent -2, Stealing -1, Killing a Flaming Fist soldier -9. Only the Killing parts work and they decrease your reputation as drastically as listed. At current I’m in a situation with neutral main character where I would need to lower my reputation moderately, not 9 points, just a few points or as desired by my ill actions in the game. If you think about it actually bogs things down quite a bit what comes to immersion and the nature of roleplaying when you find out that there’s actually no way to do this. The reputation pretty much can only go upwards, besides doing some heavy duty killing and axing the reputation for what it’s worth. I tried the stealing and injuring innocent parts in many different ways, but nothing’s happening to reputation what so ever. This should seriously be fixed as to per what the original manual says how your reputation can decrease in more and lesser ways than just plainly slaughtering someone. For what I quickly read I understand that a sub quest or two or perhaps a few can lower your reputation by a point or two for doing it in malevolent ways, but that does not even nearly cut it.

I run Windows 7 and Beamdog version 1.0.2012

TJ_Hooker

I think that in order to lose reputation from stealing, you have to wait until the guards come and confront you, and then choose a particular conversation option (I think it's whatever one sounds the most agressive). I think you then lose 1 or 2 reputation. I think this only works with a certain kind of guard though, and since what kind of guard you get is determined by where you are, it's limited to certain places.

Azaloom

Conversation options what I got with my tries when Flaming Fist comes after unsuccessful theft attempt basically were: Bribe with 100gp, bribe with 200gp, or screw u and I'm gonna kill you. Only with paying 200gp they let me go with no influence to reputation. Also I see that when nothing happens to rep when you injure innocent that is a majorish bug (I don't mean killing), which you didn't mention.

TJ_Hooker

Bribing doesn't work with the Flaming Fist, you must be thinking of the Amnish soldiers in Nashkel. If you get caught stealing by the Flaming Fist, any option you choose results in a 1 point reputation loss.

Something to keep in mind is that the old manuals were notoriously innaccurate and full of errors, even regarding the original game. I certainly wouldn't expect them to be completely accurate with regards to the Enhanced Edition (even the new manuals have a bunch of errors).

Azaloom

I originally tried the stealing and attacking commoners and other NPC's in Nashkel, Beregost and Friendly Arm Inn with no results. I just tried again stealing from merchants in Carneval east of Nashkel and bribing the soldiers with 200gp does not affect the reputation, at least not in my game. I've played with highest difficulty setting from the start.

TJ_Hooker

Huh, when I went and got caught stealing in Beregost, I got a reputation hit when confronted by the Fist. But yeah, I don't think you ever get a reputation hit in Nashkel/Carnival no matter what dialogue you choose. Game difficulty shouldn't make a difference in either situation.

Also, when I mention "getting caught stealing", I mean when you open a locked container in front of someone and get the message that the guards are being summoned, not when you try to pickpocket a person/merchant and fail. Just in case it wasn't clear what I meant.

Jalily

TJ_Hooker said:

If you get caught stealing by the Flaming Fist, any option you choose results in a 1 point reputation loss.

This only happens if your reputation is 9 or higher when you speak to them.

Azaloom

I will try the stealing again in my game today. How about hurting an innocent, but not to a point of killing one? As I said I could not get this work no matter what. Again I tried this in Friendly Arm In, Beregost and Nashkel/Carnival.

Luigirules

You can whack all the commoners you want, but if they're still alive you won't lose any reputation.

Azaloom

Yes, I noticed this. I just based my case on what I read on the original paperback manual. I don't know if this works in the original game either. But I think it would be good if both the stealing and harming innocents worked as the manual describes all the time and in every where, the first not just in selected cities and the latter fixed from as of current not working at all.

Here:
http://i439.photobucket.com/albums/qq114/Atsaloom/IMG_0305_zps9e1f03ca.jpg

Gallowglass

The reputation penalty for "stealing" means getting caught when trying to steal from a shop (in those shops which have an option to attempt stealing instead of buying, which isn't every shop). It doesn't apply to looting buildings or to pickpocketing, nor to stealing from a shop if you're not caught. It works that way in BG:EE, and (so far as I recall) worked the same way in original BG1, although the documentation (both for the original game and EE) doesn't make this very clear.

The reputation penalty for (non-fatally) injuring an innocent doesn't seem to have been implemented. So far as I recall, it never did work in the original game either, in spite of being included in the original manual.

Not listed in the documentation is the reputation penalty for insulting the Flaming Fist: if you get caught looting a building and the guards are called, then whatever reply you give to the Flaming Fist when they speak to you will result in -1 reputation. If you DON'T want to lose reputation, run before the guards arrive. If you DO want to lose reputation, wait for the guards but then run (instead of fighting them) after they've arrived and spoken to you. This applies only to Flaming Fist guards (i.e. in Beregost or Baldur's Gate), not to the Amnish Soldiers in Nashkel (who will accept bribes instead of being insulted).

Jalily

Gallowglass said:

The reputation penalty for "stealing" means getting caught when trying to steal from a shop (in those shops which have an option to attempt stealing instead of buying, which isn't every shop). It doesn't apply to looting buildings or to pickpocketing, nor to stealing from a shop if you're not caught. It works that way in BG:EE, and (so far as I recall) worked the same way in original BG1, although the documentation (both for the original game and EE) doesn't make this very clear.

No, you don't receive any reputation penalty when the owner catches you stealing via shop interface. It's only when the Flaming Fist arrive and your reputation is higher than 8 that you receive -1 no matter what choice you pick. For this purpose, opening restricted containers works just as well.

Gallowglass said:

Not listed in the documentation is the reputation penalty for insulting the Flaming Fist

That's the only reputation penalty for stealing (see above), and it is in the manual.

Cuv

@Jalily So... this is really more of a feature request than a bug report?

Jalily

@Cuv Well, the reputation losses for injuring an innocent are in the BG:EE manual, but unimplemented. Is that intentional or an oversight?

Cuv

@Jalily It was likely something that was originally (1998) intended but not implemented for the original game. I think it was in the original manual. Will flag @Aosaw to see about either changing the manual or registering this as a feature request.

Dee

If we intend to implement it, I'll leave it there; but I don't know that it makes sense to implement it with the way the game handles combat. Unless I hear otherwise, I'll make plans to adjust the manual as needed.

Gallowglass

Jalily said:

No, you don't receive any reputation penalty when the owner catches you stealing via shop interface.

I tested it a while ago, and I'm sure I did receive a reputation penalty simply for being caught (and another if I waited for the Fist to show up). However, maybe that was just a glitch, and anyway it was a few patches ago.

So maybe it never worked that way and it clearly doesn't work that way now, so I apologise for posting incorrect information.

karnor00

With the way the game engine works it would be pretty difficult to include a reputation penalty for injuring people. If you included it for hitting an innocent, then every whack would cost 2 reputation. Plus if you eventually killed them you would get the kill penalty on top.

You could end up dropping from 20 reputation to 1 for a single, badly executed butchering.

Madhax

karnor00 said:

With the way the game engine works it would be pretty difficult to include a reputation penalty for injuring people. If you included it for hitting an innocent, then every whack would cost 2 reputation. Plus if you eventually killed them you would get the kill penalty on top.

You could end up dropping from 20 reputation to 1 for a single, badly executed butchering.

Might it be possible to have a reputation drop of 2 when turning an innocent hostile by hurting them? Then lower the penalty for killing them by 2 to compensate. It would only fail if you get multiple fast hits in before the innocent turns hostile..

bigdogchris

*edit* Nevermind.