Equipping Shar-Teel Given Her Proficiency Changes in Enhanced Edition (Spoilers)

HaHaCharade

Curious how experienced evil players are equipping Shar-Teel since the Enhanced Edition changes to her weapon slots.

In the original BG she started with two slots in Large Sword and two slots in Small Sword. I personally would give her a Scimitar +3 and a shield.

Now, she is setup for two weapons. Not using the two slots that are already placed in Two-Weapon Style when you get her would be a bit of a waste imo. Additionally, with a tome she gets an 18 dex and is actually decent with two weps. Unfortunately, she does lose some AC in the process.

She's given a slot in Longsword (a good weapon, especially since many dual her to a thief) and is somewhat saddled with another slot in Dagger (kind of a waste).

So... I'm thinking Vascona in the main hand (Longsword +2 / +1 Cold Damage) and either a Dagger of Venom or Dagger +2: Longtooth in the off-hand (or more likely both, using one or the other depending on the situation).

Then again, I'm wondering if it just might be more worth it to leave dagger in the dust and spend a slot on something more meaty. Though, I'm not confident the damage you'd make up by using a bigger off-hand weapon would exceed the damage you're losing with the loss of the weapon slot you're wasting, so maybe sticking with dagger is best. Longtooth has a damage spread of 3-8, which certainly isn't bad.

Thoughts?

KidCarnival

Well, since Dorn takes over her previous role as frontliner and damage dealer, I usually dual her to thief at level 3 and keep her ranged (Dorn and Kagain for melee).
So there I am, with a ranged fighter and no ranged proficiencies for a while. I usually make use of her strength and dagger prof for throwing daggers until she gets another pip. It suits her personality and stats to still use a brute force kind of ranged weapon and makes a nice change since not many ranged NPCs have the strength to use daggers. It's not really a long term solution due to the lack of magical daggers though. I usually ignore the dual wielding and give her either Varscona or Dagger of Venom, depending on charname and if he uses daggers. She makes a fine archer or crossbower and can use weapons usually reserved for Minsc and Kivan.
I don't use her as frontliner at all and dual her to thief/ranged as soon as possible. It's a waste of her dual prof, yes. But otherwise it would be a waste of a good thief that can wear helms, so...

HaHaCharade

@KidCarnival -- Why not dual her to thief at level 7 Fighter? That way she's 7/8.

Iecerint

@ HaHaCharade -- Probably because you're stuck without thief utility for a long time.

Dazzu

Iecerint said:

@ HaHaCharade -- Probably because you're stuck without thief utility for a long time.

And you skipped Montaron or Tiax... why?

Madhax

I'm not sure what that bit about 18 dexterity equaling good dual-wielding meant, unless you're referring to the AC bonus offsetting the lack of a shield. Dexterity has no bearing on melee weapon skill until third edition.

KidCarnival

Exactly what Iecerint said. If I have Kagain and Dorn, why drag around a third frontliner if I need a thief?
And I'm not seeing how you "skip" Tiax. He doesn't become available for a long time, while you can get Shar-Teel as low as level 2 without messed up thief skills.
I have Monty/Xzar or Shar-Teel/Edwin (or Baeloth) as "default" combinations in my parties. I don't like seperating Monty and Xzar because they belong to the very few NPCs with some banters. That's rare enough in BG1 to be worth it.

shawne

Well, I dualled her at level 3 after giving her another pip in daggers, so she's got the Dagger of Venom plus Varscona in her off-hand (seems like an odd set-up, but when I swap them her THAC0 goes up by like three points, so... yeah.)

Oxford_Guy

shawne said:

Well, I dualled her at level 3 after giving her another pip in daggers, so she's got the Dagger of Venom plus Varscona in her off-hand (seems like an odd set-up, but when I swap them her THAC0 goes up by like three points, so... yeah.)

What profs did you take for her at Level 1 thief? Shortbow? Club? Single Weapon Style?

Eudaemonium

I just had her dualling daggers in my game. She had the Dagger of Venom and the Heart of the Golem, and she was *ridiculous*. I dualled her to Thief at 6, but to be honest you might as well do it at 3 unless you're going for the grandmastery trick (not levelling up past Thief 3 until you hit the Xp for 7, thus allowing you to put the Thief 4 pip into Dagger for High Mastery, then Grandmastery at Thief 8), which I didn't because I wanted her with the utility. I had Viconia tank while Shar and Dorn tore everything to shreds.

shawne

@Oxford_Guy: Two-Weapon Style, I think.

HaHaCharade

Madhax said:

I'm not sure what that bit about 18 dexterity equaling good dual-wielding meant, unless you're referring to the AC bonus offsetting the lack of a shield. Dexterity has no bearing on melee weapon skill until third edition.

Ah. good call. I thought it off-set it in 2nd Ed. Actually I think it does in some supplements.

Lemernis

I intend to use her in my next game in which I will I dual-class every NPC. I plan to dual her at Thief 3 and give her Varscona in the main hand and Dagger of Venom in the offhand. (Reportedly it's the main hand that hits/gets multiplied on backstabs.) I'll have her backstab at every opportunity. I think the additional continued poison attacks from the DoV make it worth it, versus using another Long Sword in the offhand.

If she's fighting undead or werewolves then the Harrower, >the Sword of Balduran Flame Tongue, or Werebane, as indicated.

Eudaemonium

I'm sure you know this, but the Sword of Balduran is a bastard sword and is she therefore lacks the proficiencies for it.

Fardragon

You would be better going dagger with another dagger. Then you can focus your proficencies more efficently. Use the silver dagger against werewolves.

Lemernis

Eudaemonium said:

I'm sure you know this, but the Sword of Balduran is a bastard sword and is she therefore lacks the proficiencies for it.

Oops, thanks, lazy eye on my part.

HaHaCharade

Eudaemonium said:

I just had her dualling daggers in my game. She had the Dagger of Venom and the Heart of the Golem, and she was *ridiculous*. I dualled her to Thief at 6, but to be honest you might as well do it at 3 unless you're going for the grandmastery trick (not levelling up past Thief 3 until you hit the Xp for 7, thus allowing you to put the Thief 4 pip into Dagger for High Mastery, then Grandmastery at Thief 8), which I didn't because I wanted her with the utility. I had Viconia tank while Shar and Dorn tore everything to shreds.

I just experimented with the "Teel", courtesy of Shadow Keeper

If you dual her into a 7/8 Fighter Thief, you have the following possibilities:

Long Sword (5 Slots)
Dagger (1 Slot)
Two-Weapon Fighting Style (2 Slots)

Main Hand THACO (5)
Off Hand THACO (10)
No. Attacks (7/2)
-- Gauntlets of Ogre Power and a Helm of Balduran were used in this example

Main Hand (Vascona -> 3-10 Damage / +1 Cold / Speed Factor: 3)
Off Hand (Scorched Earth -> 2-9 Damage / Special Damage Against Certain Creatures / Speed Factor: 3)

Listed Ability Bonuses:
+14 to Hit
+ 6 to Damage

OR

Dagger (5 Slots)
Long Sword (1 Slot)
Two-Weapon Fighting Style (2 Slots)
No. Attacks (7/2)

Main Hand THACO (5)
Off Hand THACO (9)
No. Attacks (7/2)
-- Gauntlets of Ogre Power and a Helm of Balduran were used in this example

Main Hand (Long Tooth -> 3-8 Damage / Speed Factor: 0)
Off Hand (Dagger of Venom -> 3-6 Damage / Chance to Poison on Each Hit / Speed Factor: 0)

Listed Ability Bonuses:
+15 to Hit
+ 6 to Damage

I'm leaning towards the Long Sword build. Speed Factor doesn't matter that much and the possibility of higher high-end damage (5-6 more depending if cold damage kicks in) while losing 1 THACO on your Off-Hand seems acceptable. Still, the Dagger of Venom as an off-hand weapon does have 1 better minimum damage, and the Poison ability which is wicked against most creatures... So I'm kind of torn.

I can't believe there's not another +2 Long Sword or better in the game besides Vascona.

Oxford_Guy

shawne said:

@Oxford_Guy: Two-Weapon Style, I think.

AFAIK That's not a good idea at thief level 1, as any proficiency points you put into skills you already had as a fighter will be over written with your fighter ones when you get your fighter levels back at level 4. Hence why you shouldn't put any points into long swords, daggers or two-weapon fighting at level 2

Lemernis

HaHaCharade said:

I can't believe there's not another +2 Long Sword or better in the game besides Vascona.

Well, it isn't + 2 but Harrower is fairly good at THAC0 +1 with damage 2-9 (and there's a bonus for Undead). (Varscona is THAC0 +2 with damage 3-10.)

Speed factor evidently doesn't matter when dual-wielding, per some testing by a forum member.

Erg

Shar-Teel is arguably the most versatile of the NPCs.

This is what I did with her in my current playthrough:

Dualling:
Fighter 6 / Thief 9

Proficiencies (I've used the "not levelling up past Thief 3 until you hit the Xp for 7" trick):
Longsword +++
Dagger ++
2Weapons +++
Sling + (chosen at Level 1 Thief, for the Strength bonus to damage)
Sword & Shield + (chosen at Level 1 Thief; "Single Weapon Style" is also nice here, but only if you remove the off-hand weapon before each backstab; I personally would find that annoying, but that's just me)

Skills:
Maximised Hide in Shadows and Move Silently (for backstab)

She is dual wielding Varscona and Dagger of Venom most of the time. In the rare situations in which I need her with a ranged weapon, she switch to Sling and Large Shield.

shawne

Oxford_Guy said:

AFAIK That's not a good idea at thief level 1, as any proficiency points you put into skills you already had as a fighter will be over written with your fighter ones when you get your fighter levels back at level 4. Hence why you shouldn't put any points into long swords, daggers or two-weapon fighting at level 2

Actually, that's not what happened at all - when she got her Fighter skills back they were added to her existing tally, so she now has three pips in daggers and three in two-weapon style...

HaHaCharade

shawne said:

Oxford_Guy said:

AFAIK That's not a good idea at thief level 1, as any proficiency points you put into skills you already had as a fighter will be over written with your fighter ones when you get your fighter levels back at level 4. Hence why you shouldn't put any points into long swords, daggers or two-weapon fighting at level 2

Actually, that's not what happened at all - when she got her Fighter skills back they were added to her existing tally, so she now has three pips in daggers and three in two-weapon style...

@shawne was correct in my testing

HaHaCharade

Lemernis said:

HaHaCharade said:

I can't believe there's not another +2 Long Sword or better in the game besides Vascona.

Well, it isn't + 2 but Harrower is fairly good at THAC0 +1 with damage 2-9 (and there's a bonus for Undead). (Varscona is THAC0 +2 with damage 3-10.)

Speed factor evidently doesn't matter when dual-wielding, per some testing by a forum member.

To be honest the Harrower is *almost* useless lol. The Flame Tongue gives +4 damage vs. Undead to the Harrower's +3. The only thing the Harrower has on it, is the extra +2 THACO vs. Undead. Blah. Plus the Flame Tongue gives other pluses too (though granted, not the most useful).

Lemernis

HaHaCharade said:

To be honest the Harrower is *almost* useless lol. The Flame Tongue gives +4 damage vs. Undead to the Harrower's +3. The only thing the Harrower has on it, is the extra +2 THACO vs. Undead. Blah. Plus the Flame Tongue gives other pluses too (though granted, not the most useful).

That's true. My head's in a bit of a fog today. (Moreso than usual.)

Against the vast majority of enemies there won't be a difference between Harrower and Flame Tongue. I guess when you're fighting Undead you can equip both Flame Tongue and Harrower.

There's a kind of neat fire and ice thing going one when dual-wielding Varscona and Flame Tongue, although it's more conceptually fun than practically meaningful.

HaHaCharade

Lemernis said:

There's a kind of neat fire and ice thing going one when dual-wielding Varscona and Flame Tongue, although it's more conceptually fun than practically meaningful.

Fire and Ice
---------------
Some say the world will end in fire,
Some say in ice.
From what I've tasted of desire
I hold with those who favor fire.
But if it had to perish twice,
I think I know enough of hate
To say that for destruction ice
Is also great
And would suffice.
-- Robert Frost

Oxford_Guy

shawne said:

Oxford_Guy said:

AFAIK That's not a good idea at thief level 1, as any proficiency points you put into skills you already had as a fighter will be over written with your fighter ones when you get your fighter levels back at level 4. Hence why you shouldn't put any points into long swords, daggers or two-weapon fighting at level 2

Actually, that's not what happened at all - when she got her Fighter skills back they were added to her existing tally, so she now has three pips in daggers and three in two-weapon style...

That's bizarre, though perhaps your original fighter proficiencies only overwrite actual *weapon* proficiencies, and not styles - if that's the case, definitely worth putting in an extra pip into dual-wielding at Thief 1. What was you other pick at thief level 1 - shortbows?

shawne

Oxford_Guy said:

That's bizarre, though perhaps your original fighter proficiencies only overwrite actual *weapon* proficiencies, and not styles - if that's the case, definitely worth putting in an extra pip into dual-wielding at Thief 1. What was you other pick at thief level 1 - shortbows?

Yes, though I'm not using her in that capacity - Baeloth, Viconia and my Sorcerer PC are handling all the ranged attacks.

Wolk

@shawne how did you get baeloth in your party?

shawne

@Wolk: When your PC reaches level 5, go to Larswood. Near the south edge of the map you'll find a tower. Explore the immediate area and... well, you'll see.

Wolk

@shawne thank you, i'm on my way

shawne

Wolk said:

@shawne thank you, i'm on my way

Enjoy him! I certainly do.