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The Patching of Rancor

SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
in Archive (General Discussion)
What, exactly, do the patch notes mean when they say they made Rancor not give its THAC0 bonus to characters other than Dorn?
Assuming it means what I think it does, and it makes Rancor useless to CHARNAME, then WTH?! That's moronic.
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Comments

  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    Yeah, especially when the lack of monkey-grip feat prevents it being dual wielded with the moonblade!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  • MadhaxMadhax Member Posts: 1,416
    I don't see how it's moronic. Rancor was always supposed to be Dorn's sword, and ONLY Dorn's sword. The THAC0-altering effect specifies as much.
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    @Fardragon
    Exactly!

    @Madhax
    Then they should have made it Dorn-only. Why can other characters equip it?



  • Oxford_GuyOxford_Guy Member Posts: 3,729
    I think it should be made specific to Dorn
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    The initial part of my OP was a serious question, btw. Does that mean other characters simply wield Rancor as a mundane greatsword that does not break, or is it still +1 but does not get the on-kill buff?
  • CamDawgCamDawg Member, Developer Posts: 3,438
    The on-kill thac0 bonus is for Dorn only. Other characters will wield it as a +1 two-hander.
  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    I think all personal items of the NPCs should be usable *only* by them, same as Xan's Moonblade. Neera's staff is even named "Neera's Quarterstaff +1".

    From what I understand, the Rancor is a two-handed sword +1 for anyone except Dorn, and doesn't get the kill buff.
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    CamDawg said:

    The on-kill thac0 bonus is for Dorn only. Other characters will wield it as a +1 two-hander.

    Hm, sad, but okay I guess. I can still kill him for a quick magical weapon.

  • MadhaxMadhax Member Posts: 1,416
    @Schneidend
    I actually prefer this interpretation of personalized weapons. Rancor is a magical weapon in anybody's hands, just particularly powerful in Dorn's. Unlocking special abilities of weapons when they're wielded by certain characters is, to me, preferable to preventing anyone else from using them at all.

    Xan's moonblade would benefit from this sort of treatment if it wasn't available so early in the game, though perhaps moonblade lore would prevent that from being realistic.
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    KidCarnival said:

    I think all personal items of the NPCs should be usable *only* by them, same as Xan's Moonblade. Neera's staff is even named "Neera's Quarterstaff +1".

    From what I understand, the Rancor is a two-handed sword +1 for anyone except Dorn, and doesn't get the kill buff.

    I'd be fine if they had just limited it to Dorn in the first place, but they chose not to do that, so the original qualities of the item and the change that takes away its unique ability for other characters seems contradictory.

    @Madhax
    I can see the merit in that. It's just that Rancor is a solitary exception that proves the rule, and is thus both jarring and grating to me for it to suddenly work this way.
  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447
    Think of it less as a bonus from the sword, and more of a bonus from Dorn when wielding this specific weapon. It's not the weapon's special ability; it's Dorn's.
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    Aosaw said:

    Think of it less as a bonus from the sword, and more of a bonus from Dorn when wielding this specific weapon. It's not the weapon's special ability; it's Dorn's.

    Then shouldn't Dorn always have that ability?

  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    Schneidend said:

    Aosaw said:

    Think of it less as a bonus from the sword, and more of a bonus from Dorn when wielding this specific weapon. It's not the weapon's special ability; it's Dorn's.

    Then shouldn't Dorn always have that ability?

    He does.

    He always has the ability to gain an additional +1 when weilding Rancor.
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    Fardragon said:


    He does.

    He always has the ability to gain an additional +1 when weilding Rancor.

    Fine then, smart guy:
    Schneidend said:



    Then shouldn't Dorn always have that ability while wielding any weapon ?


  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447
    It's part of Dorn's special pact that when wielding the tool gifted to him by his patron, he gains a special bonus.

    He doesn't get that bonus when wielding other weapons because that's not part of the pact. No one else gets the bonus because no one else has made the same pact.
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    Aosaw said:

    It's part of Dorn's special pact that when wielding the tool gifted to him by his patron, he gains a special bonus.

    He doesn't get that bonus when wielding other weapons because that's not part of the pact. No one else gets the bonus because no one else has made the same pact.

    But all of his other powers work just fine without Rancor. I'm just looking for some consistency here.
  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447
    What other powers are you referring to? He has Blackguard powers, but that's because he's, you know...a blackguard.
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    Aosaw said:

    What other powers are you referring to? He has Blackguard powers, but that's because he's, you know...a blackguard.

    He wasn't a Blackguard prior to his pact, though.

  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447
    So you're saying that Dorn should get his weapon-specific ability with all weapons because he always has his class abilities?...
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    Schneidend said:

    Aosaw said:

    It's part of Dorn's special pact that when wielding the tool gifted to him by his patron, he gains a special bonus.

    He doesn't get that bonus when wielding other weapons because that's not part of the pact. No one else gets the bonus because no one else has made the same pact.

    But all of his other powers work just fine without Rancor. I'm just looking for some consistency here.
    Not very well up on fantasy tropes are you?

    Bilbo Baggins can't use the One Ring to rule Middle Earth either.
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    edited February 2013
    Aosaw said:

    So you're saying that Dorn should get his weapon-specific ability with all weapons because he always has his class abilities?...

    What I'm saying is that if the ability comes from his patron, like his other abilities do, it shouldn't be tied to the weapon. If it is tied to the weapon, other characters should be able to make use of it.
    Fardragon said:



    Not very well up on fantasy tropes are you?

    Bilbo Baggins can't use the One Ring to rule Middle Earth either.

    Well, apparently, neither can Sauron.

    But, in all seriousness, can't he? We only see the hobbits turn invisible using the ring, but maybe they simply don't know how to operate it to the fullest, so all it does is enhance their natural gifts of stealth?
  • MathmickMathmick Member Posts: 326
    Think of it not as his ability to use the sword, but the sword's power being tied to him.
  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,318
    If you read the description of the sword it is implicit that it's enchantments owe to Dorn's deal with his fiendish patron. The sword gives off a slight hum in his presence. The page for Dorn at www.baldursgate.com states "Dorn is a half-orc Blackguard whose otherworldly patron grants him terrible powers in the form of his black sword and unholy spells."
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    I can buy that his patron is the one who enchanted the sword, but having that enchantment be selective just strikes me as silly. If my PC is also a Blackguard with a fiendish patron, shouldn't I be able to figure out how to make it work? Just sayin'.
  • RhymeRhyme Member Posts: 190
    Um... Doesn't the item description clearly say "When Dorn kills an enemy with this weapon..."? I'm at work, so I can't check, but I'm fairly certain that it singles Dorn out when describing the extra +1 effect.

    So if you want consistency, then there you go. They made the item behave consistently with its description.
  • MadhaxMadhax Member Posts: 1,416
    Fardragon said:

    Schneidend said:

    Aosaw said:

    It's part of Dorn's special pact that when wielding the tool gifted to him by his patron, he gains a special bonus.

    He doesn't get that bonus when wielding other weapons because that's not part of the pact. No one else gets the bonus because no one else has made the same pact.

    But all of his other powers work just fine without Rancor. I'm just looking for some consistency here.
    Not very well up on fantasy tropes are you?

    Bilbo Baggins can't use the One Ring to rule Middle Earth either.
    A little devil's advocate here: I'm not entirely brushed up on my Tolkein, but I was always under the impression that Bilbo, Frodo, and briefly Sam were highly resistant of the Ring's influences. Had they lost the ring to an evil person, or even a more easily-swayed individual like Boromir, invisibility would have been the least of our worries. I don't think it's a fair comparison.

    But on topic, I don't see how this is inconsistent. It isn't even entirely without precedent within Baldur's Gate: Aegis-Fang, looted from Wulfgar, functions as a powerfully enchanted warhammer but loses its returning capabilities when not wielded by the man it was specifically crafted for.

    And while I can't cite lesser-known Forgotten Realms stories, I know that Artemis Entreri's sentient longsword "unlocked" various abilities for Entreri specifically as he gained mastery over the sword, and "only" functioned as a typical magical longsword when Entreri first claimed it.

  • OzzyBotkinsOzzyBotkins Member Posts: 396
    Wulgar 2H hameer had special properties when wufgar was using i9t
  • shawneshawne Member Posts: 3,239
    Schneidend said:

    I can buy that his patron is the one who enchanted the sword, but having that enchantment be selective just strikes me as silly. If my PC is also a Blackguard with a fiendish patron, shouldn't I be able to figure out how to make it work? Just sayin'.

    These are two separate things: Ur-Gothoz specifically enchanted Rancor to be empowered when Dorn, and only Dorn, uses it to kill. In addition, he has given Dorn several abilities (ie: life drain, poison weapon) which - since those specific abilities are tied to Dorn himself and not to Rancor - work with any weapon.
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    @Rhyme
    I honestly don't recall. Good catch, if so.

    @Madhax
    Fair points, all. I had forgotten about Aegis-Fang functioning that way in BG2, and I'm not too familiar with Entreri, even less so with his equipment. I guess I'm just more used to things simply working. I mean, if this kind of enchantment is doable, why doesn't everybody do it?

    If nothing else, this will be interesting RP-wise.

    Blackguard Schneided: "Thanks for the help, but I could not help but notice your sword rent that one guy's soul. I'll take it!"

    Dorn - Death

    Some Random Enemy Fought Later On - Death

    Blackguard Schneidend: "Huh? Is this thing broken or what?!"
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