The Wizard, The Djin and The Wish

Zeratul

Hi to all!! I want ask to ask several questions Bg 2 Throne of Bhaal related.

1) What class can be best suited to cast a Wish (level 9) spells? Sorcerer? Mage? Wild Mage?

2) I want make a caster and i want keep him for all the journey between Bg1 ee to the end of the story (TOB)! What is the best caster for high levels? Sorcer? Wild mage? Normal mage? specialized mage?

3) What is requirement for have good % to make a good wish (for example memorized all spells like rested?) I need only high wisdom? Because i read that wish make a double check on int and wisdom, but i don't have any proof about it. I ask this, because if i make a sorcerer with low intelligence but enough wisdom can i use the same Wish?

4) I know that Sorcerer its pretty a broken class now: No requirements at all! Primary stats is intelligence, but no intelligence check on any spells or others! The devs have in mind to fix this? Fixing will broke previous character? Like a nerf or something?

Thanks to all!

Lord_Tansheron

1) it doesn't matter, it only checks stats, not class.

2) it depends on how modded your game is; vanilla, probably Sorcerer. Keep in mind that casters are fairly weak throughout BG1

3) afaik it only checks against your WIS value. I have never heard of it checking INT as well, but I may be wrong

4) "Primary stat is intelligence" - this is not true. There is no primary stat for sorcerers. Aside from general usefulness of stats (i.e. DEX = higher AC, etc.), no stat hold special meaning for a Sorc. You will be as good a caster with 3 INT as with 25. Afaik they were supposed to be relying on CHA, but it's not implemented as such in the game.

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Zeratul

@Lord_Tansheron

My game isn't modded its bg ee plain version. I want a caster that can be good in throne of bhaal I think sorcer can do the trick, but also a specialized mage can get many spells per day.

I'm a bit puzzled if can be good thing to put some extra constitution point for use the Claw of Kazgarth (or wathever)

@Bhaaldog i know! But its a fun that often lead you to death i don't want load every times i got a wild surge

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Eudaemonium

@Bhaaldog: Did you get the Wild surge that chunks you and transports you to Sigil? I don't think that happens to most people.

Djimmy

For better "Wish" results you only need to max Wis.

Lord_Tansheron

Zeratul said:

@Lord_Tansheron

My game isn't modded its bg ee plain version. I want a caster that can be good in throne of bhaal I think sorcer can do the trick, but also a specialized mage can get many spells per day.

In an unmodded game, it probably won't matter what you pick, a specialist or a sorcerer. Generally, though, I tend to gravitate towards specialists, because they have more spells, and there are only a handful of spells you actually use per level, meaning you don't really need the sorcerer's flexibility too often. Also you lose out on a lot of XP from scribing scrolls in BG2 if you go Sorcerer.

That being said, these sorts of decisions depend a lot on various other factors. For example, as mentioned before, sorcerers don't really need INT - meaning you can load up on other beneficial stats instead, which can be VERY relevant if you don't re-roll until godlike totals.

Truth be told, though, I prefer not to have CHARNAME as a pure caster in BG2. Why? Because Edwin will almost always be better. His unique amulet adds extra spells for all levels, and he is also a specialist, meaning that he will always have more spells than any other caster. I haven't used him in BG1 so I'm not sure if he has the amulet there as well...

At the end of the day, vanilla is easy enough that you can simply choose what you like best. You will do fine either way most likely, and probably have a lot more fun along the way than you would have going with a "power" choice.

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Kaltzor

Wish gets better with a higher Wisdom...

If you want to be forced to having a high wisdom to begin with, you could roll as a Necromancer, their secondary stat requirement is 16+ Wisdom.

Zeratul

@Kaltzor Yup i really want be forced to have high wisdom! But i don't get why a Necromancer need so much wisdom? Can you explain to me?

@Lord_Tansheron Yep! This help me alot! i know that build a pure caster in bg1 can be a real pain due to low hp (maybe find familiar can fix a bit this problem)

I wanted to build a sorcerer because Edwin its already a better than you can be, but now as a overpowered Sorcerer they have add

Baeloth

so i am a bit lost!

Maybe can i build a kensai/mage , but i don't have what proficencies chose. I know that i can play vanilla bg without problem with any class/combo but i wanted also to have in my hand a power CHARNAME

Lord_Tansheron

If you want to go for full power in BG2, I believe a Kensai 13->Mage dual class with Flail of Ages+5/Belm as weapons is about as good as it gets in the unmodded game. Not sure how you will fare in BG1 with that, though, you could be a little fragile...

Zeratul

@Lord_Tansheron why the Belm that is only +2? I have heard about on Kensai/mage go full 5 points in katanas but i don't know what katana are so good in the game.

About fragile in bg1 i think i will be fragile like a mage :P except for the improved life points for the 18 in constitution

Lord_Tansheron

Your offhand attack only has 1 APR regardless, meaning it's highly irrelevant. Belm is used because it adds +1 APR, which will add a MAIN hand attack (or 2 with Improved Haste). Those extra main hand attacks add more overall damage than a potentially more damaging offhand, especially with FoA+5 which deals an exceptional amount of damage already.

Katanas are good mainly because of their damage range (1d10); with Kai, you always deal maximum damage, meaning more the higher your maximum damage range. Unfortunately the best Katana in the unmodded game is still Celestial Fury+3, and there are some bosses (especially at the end of the game) that a +3 weapon cannot hit.

Even without accounting for Kai, though, FoA+5 deals an obscene amount of damage. I suppose an okay alternative would be Foebane+5, or the aforementioned CF+3 when fighting enemies that you can hit with +3 weapons.

Zeratul

@Lord_Tansheron Now its all more clear So this means about proficencies sake i must take --> 4 in flail and 1 in scimitar for Belm and then 3 profi slot for dual wield weapons.

I'm right? Because i'm trying to get godly stats for roll such nice CHARNAME

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Lord_Tansheron

@Zeratul that sounds about right, not sure though how the priority goes after ** in Two-Weapon Fighting (= remove MH penalties), you may want to start on the other weapon type then... I will look it up somewhere! I assume you put 4 into flail and not 5 because grandmastery isn't working properly without mods?

It's true, Kensai->Mage can be quite cheesy, especially in the unmodded game. Show those infidels how a REAL godspawn fights!

But as always, it's up to you to figure out how fun something is for you! And once you've beaten the game once or twice as vanilla, there's always the next mod ready and waiting to make your life miserable

SpaceInvader

Zeratul said:

Hi to all!! I want ask to ask several questions Bg 2 Throne of Bhaal related.

1) What class can be best suited to cast a Wish (level 9) spells? Sorcerer? Mage? Wild Mage?

2) I want make a caster and i want keep him for all the journey between Bg1 ee to the end of the story (TOB)! What is the best caster for high levels? Sorcer? Wild mage? Normal mage? specialized mage?

3) What is requirement for have good % to make a good wish (for example memorized all spells like rested?) I need only high wisdom? Because i read that wish make a double check on int and wisdom, but i don't have any proof about it. I ask this, because if i make a sorcerer with low intelligence but enough wisdom can i use the same Wish?

4) I know that Sorcerer its pretty a broken class now: No requirements at all! Primary stats is intelligence, but no intelligence check on any spells or others! The devs have in mind to fix this? Fixing will broke previous character? Like a nerf or something?

Thanks to all!

1) Obviously the more Wishes you can cast, the higher is the probability of getting the Rest choice.
Sorcerer.

2) The one you like the most.
Nah joking, always sorcerer. But dual/multiclass mages can be really funny.

3) To have the best chance you need WIS 18, nothing else.

4) Broken? Intelligence? Fix? o.O
No, no & no.

Lord_Tansheron

SpaceInvader said:

1) Obviously the more Wishes you can cast, the higher is the probability of getting the Rest choice.
Sorcerer.

Sorcerers can never cast more spells of a given level than mages, let alone specialist mages. It's the price they pay for not having to memorize.

Aristillius

Also, for a fighter dual, id not wait til lvl 13, 9 is fine IMHO. Boring to spend over half of the game gimped. Just to take that into account...

Zeratul

@Lord_Tansheron what do you mean that a sorcerers can never cast more spells of a given level than mages? I always thinking that sorceres can cast more spells per daily than any mage classes also the specialist one.

Btw i want thank to all guys in this topic for help me so much! @SpaceInvader if you want tell me some tips for making a godlike sorcerer i will be please to talk with you via pm in our native tongue :P

SpaceInvader

Lord_Tansheron said:

SpaceInvader said:

1) Obviously the more Wishes you can cast, the higher is the probability of getting the Rest choice.
Sorcerer.

Sorcerers can never cast more spells of a given level than mages, let alone specialist mages. It's the price they pay for not having to memorize.

You mean you are going to fill all your lvl9 spell slots with Wishes? Hardly.

Aristillius said:

Also, for a fighter dual, id not wait til lvl 13, 9 is fine IMHO. Boring to spend over half of the game gimped. Just to take that into account...

To quickly reach lvl14 with the second class you need to store all the possible scrolls and learn them in solo, save all the easy quests, etc.
If you know how to proceed it's not that hard, and there are guides all over the web.

Lord_Tansheron

Zeratul said:

@Lord_Tansheron what do you mean that a sorcerers can never cast more spells of a given level than mages? I always thinking that sorceres can cast more spells per daily than any mage classes also the specialist one.

Sorcerers can cast less spells per level than mages, always, but they have access to all the spells they have learned at all times. It's a trade-off situation.

SpaceInvader said:

You mean you are going to fill all your lvl9 spell slots with Wishes? Hardly.

I agree that chance plays a role, but then again it's not hard to find an average number. And with more slots to fill, you can afford to. But these considerations aside, all I pointed out was that sorcerers always have less spells than mages of any kind

Aristillius said:

Also, for a fighter dual, id not wait til lvl 13, 9 is fine IMHO. Boring to spend over half of the game gimped. Just to take that into account...

13 is quite important because of the extra 1/2 attack you gain. That's 1.500.000 XP you need to re-active it, which isn't all that much. The only time it gets annoying is if you do it with several classes in a large party, but as @SpaceInvader said, there are ways to deal with it. It can even be fun, especially once you're doing quests for the umpteenth time....

PawnSlayer

Lord_Tansheron said:

Zeratul said:

@Lord_Tansheron what do you mean that a sorcerers can never cast more spells of a given level than mages? I always thinking that sorceres can cast more spells per daily than any mage classes also the specialist one.

Sorcerers can cast less spells per level than mages, always, but they have access to all the spells they have learned at all times. It's a trade-off situation.
.

Actually this is untrue. Sorcerors get 6 spells per level, whereas generic mages get 5. Specialist Mages also get 6.

Lord_Tansheron

Actually, you are correct! It seems I read the chart backwards. It is as you say, 5 for generic mages, 6 for specialists. And 7 for Edwin...

My apologies!

the_spyder

Something to consider. If playing a Sorcerer, remember that there are only a handful of 'Wish' scrolls. So you have to actually pick it as one of your spells if you are going to cast it more than a few times. But then it holds up a space in your 9th level spell list. If you aren't going to cast it regularly, that seems to be a waste (to me).

I am always a big fan of Wizards myself. But Sorcerers to get more spells to cast per day. Then the trade off comes with picking the spell instead of something else.

Just my two cents.

Lord_Tansheron

Do Sorcerers get mage HLAs? Before I spout nonsense again... But if so, don't you gain those in addition to your regular selection? So really, you only need to pick Timestop, and then you can go straight for Wish, since Dragon's Breath and Improved Alacrity are HLAs. I don't find myself casting anything else much... maybe the odd Spellstrike every now and then?

I think the strategy was that you cast whatever you want to cast, then when you run low you use Wish to rest - regaining everything, including the Wish. Repeat ad nauseam. Not sure there's many fights that require that tactics, especially in an unmodded game, but hey... Me, I've never found resting to be a problem, really. Heck, you can even rest at the Throne of Bhaal itself!

PawnSlayer

Lord_Tansheron said:

Do Sorcerers get mage HLAs? Before I spout nonsense again... But if so, don't you gain those in addition to your regular selection? So really, you only need to pick Timestop, and then you can go straight for Wish, since Dragon's Breath and Improved Alacrity are HLAs. I don't find myself casting anything else much... maybe the odd Spellstrike every now and then?

I think the strategy was that you cast whatever you want to cast, then when you run low you use Wish to rest - regaining everything, including the Wish. Repeat ad nauseam. Not sure there's many fights that require that tactics, especially in an unmodded game, but hey... Me, I've never found resting to be a problem, really. Heck, you can even rest at the Throne of Bhaal itself!

You are correct. Sorcerors get all the mage HLAs in addition to up to 4 (without removing the level cap, that's all you'll get, and it applies to level 8 spells as well) ordinary level 9 spells.

Since Wish is an HLA, you can take it without impairing your other selections.

Limited Wish, that's different. But I never play without two wizards, so I've got my PC sorceror and a backup mage. Usually Jan, since he's the only thief who can actually level up, so serves in both roles nicely. A potion boots his wisdom up to the necessary.

The reason I favour sorcerors is because I find there's very few spells I need to cast regularly, and those I do, I cast often. Anything else I need, well, that's why I have scrolls and a backup mage.

the_spyder

goes to show that I don't play very many high level casters. It has been a LONG time since I got as far as the ToB expansion. I usually run out of steam about the time I face Irenicus for the final time. Not that ToB isn't great. Just it is a long haul from Candlekeep to that point and I have other games to play and not much gaming time.

Serves me right for speaking without knowing my stuff. Thanks @PawnSlayer and @Lord_Tansheron.

Lord_Tansheron

PawnSlayer said:

Since Wish is an HLA, you can take it without impairing your other selections.

Is that different for sorcerers? Because I know for sure that regular mages don't get Wish as a HLA, they get it from a scroll.

SpaceInvader

the_spyder said:

Something to consider. If playing a Sorcerer, remember that there are only a handful of 'Wish' scrolls. So you have to actually pick it as one of your spells if you are going to cast it more than a few times. But then it holds up a space in your 9th level spell list. If you aren't going to cast it regularly, that seems to be a waste (to me).

Probably you are talking about Limited Wish.
Anyway, choosing Wish is never a waste for a Sorc

Lord_Tansheron said:

Do Sorcerers get mage HLAs? Before I spout nonsense again... But if so, don't you gain those in addition to your regular selection? So really, you only need to pick Timestop, and then you can go straight for Wish, since Dragon's Breath and Improved Alacrity are HLAs. I don't find myself casting anything else much... maybe the odd Spellstrike every now and then?

Yes they do. At lvl31 a Sorc ends up with 4 lvl9 spells + all the HLAs.

PawnSlayer said:

Since Wish is an HLA, you can take it without impairing your other selections.

It's not
Wish is a regular lvl9 spell, not a HLA. So you can put it in a quick slot and use it with a Simulacrum/Project Image.