Fighter/Thieves: Multi Or Duel or Swashbukler
OzzyBotkins
Member Posts: 396
Almost done with my first playthrough in BG:EE as a 1/2 elf Druid
I am think about going to fighter/thief next playthrough
I would like your opinions on this
what do you like best? a multiclass fighter/thief ?
or a duel class fighter then thief ( and what level you would make the switch ) ?
or a duel class thief then fighter ( and what level you would make the switch ) ?
I don't mind playing through BG:EE as one class and duel to the other when BG2:EE comes out
or a straight Thief class using the swashbukler kit ?
and what race do you like the best for the multi and or swashbulckler ( duels I know are human only )
Thank you for your time
I am think about going to fighter/thief next playthrough
I would like your opinions on this
what do you like best? a multiclass fighter/thief ?
or a duel class fighter then thief ( and what level you would make the switch ) ?
or a duel class thief then fighter ( and what level you would make the switch ) ?
I don't mind playing through BG:EE as one class and duel to the other when BG2:EE comes out
or a straight Thief class using the swashbukler kit ?
and what race do you like the best for the multi and or swashbulckler ( duels I know are human only )
Thank you for your time
0
Comments
If you want to powergame, start with a Thief kit then dual class to a Fighter.
You can put all 4 pips of your 1st lvl Fighter into one weapon (due to a bug) and be Grandmaster in that weapon by lvl 3.
I dislike the downtime of dual-classing so I'd dual at Fighter 3. Level 3 is really no hassle at all. I've actually grown to like this dual-class option. You can get your Fighter skills back almost immediately that way.
When dualing there's no good reason I can see not to begin with a Fighter kit. Each of the kits has something to offer. Yes, possibly even including the much maligned Wizard Slayer (see here).* Either a Berserker's Rage or a Kensai's Kai Shot is a great bonus. And the WS causing 10% spell failure on each successful hit (plus WS gains some Magic Resistance with each level, though they won't accrue much in BG:EE) is potentially useful. That said, you'll probably kill mages outright before you whittle down their spellcasting ability. But if you ever eventually play with the SCS:EE mod installed then mages will be much more formidable, eg, buffed with Stoneskin and whatnot.
As for a Swashbuckler I've yet to try one (I'm coming back to the game after a long hiatus from it... don't think I ever got around to playing one, anyway... ). So I can't offer advice there.
* Truth to tell, I've never even tried a Wizard Slayer. So I haven't actually tried out the WS 3/Thief build I posted there. But in theory it should at least be great fun just to see how WS dual-wielding those axes does versus mages.
For BG2 though, and particularly ToB, I think Swashbuckler->Fighter is the way to go.
In BG2, the advantage of having a multi over a dual-class is that the thief HLA pool is better than the fighter's. You thought Greater Whirlwind was a good move? Put Improved Haste on a F/T dual-wielding Celestial Fury and Belm and pop Assassination, and have fun with your 9 backstabs in a round.
It's also worth noting that, if you aren't particularly enamored with snares or detecting illusions, a multiclass thief will sufficiently provide your party with support skills while also being stealthy. This is even true in BGEE. My 20 Dex PC F/T, with a little help from potions, was able to stealth everywhere, disarm every trap, open every lock, and pick every relevant pocket.
-It can backstab
-Has tons of skill points
-Gets more proficiency points
-It can wear Full Plate and shield if you want to be a tank in a boss battle
-In BG2 it gets both Fighter and Thief HLAs, so you can get Greater Whirlwind and UAI for Carsormyr etc
-No relying on another NPC to Backstab (Swashbuckler) or to fill your shoes while you Dual-class
-You can get bonuses from races
Personally, I'm biased against Dual-classing. It's too powergamey for me, it's tedious and makes no sense at all, while you still don't get mixed HLAs, or racial bonuses.
A Half-Orc Fighter/Thief is a brutal backstabber with it's 19 STR (20 with tome) and very very survivable with 19 CON (20 with tome, plus regeneration).
An Elven Fighter/Thief can become Coran v2.0. With tomes you can get 19 STR, 20 DEX, 18 CON rest whatever. Makes for an amazing archer/thief/tank/whatever you want. Plus racial bonuses with bows and swords and skills. Probably the most balanced Fighter/Thief race.
Halflings get bonuses in almost everything and shorty bonuses too. But -1 STR so they aren't as great backstabbers as Half-Orcs. They are better with ranged weapons like slings. They also get the most skill points.
Dwarves are better at Find Traps and Open Locks instead, though that -1 Dex hurts a bit.
Half-Elves are better at Pick-Pocketing but no any other significant bonuses. Best race for Bards, obviously.
Gnomes are pretty damn good but no bonuses in abilities that matter to a Fighter/Thief. It focuses more on Find Traps and Illusions than stealth like halflings.
It's a classic multiclass that is viable from the beginning of BG1 to end of ToB, very versatile and fun.
Dual-classing makes my eyes roll.
Very true.
Half-Orcs are quite fun in their own right and from an RP perspective too. Like making a thuggish thief instead of a finesse one.
Elven Fighter/Thieves are very very versatile. They can be archers, backstabbers, sneakers, trappers, lock-pickers, trap-disarmers, tanks at the same time and change on the spot as needed.
The Swashbuckler comes close but no backstabbing or armor for you unless you dual-class and you still lose one or the other HLAs in BG2(EE).
I could role play Montaron unevil twin
Yes you could... If you behave VERY nicely, and make a good repution for yourself, then you get DUHM - then Halflings become nearly as good backstabbers as the rest
I actually want Monty's OTHER evil twin, or brother or whatever for BG2EE, if not himself.
Or Time Stop trap (that's available in HLAs if I'm not mistaken) and Whirlwind with Carsormyr or the Ravager?
Lots of fun.
Thief lvl 3 or 5/fighter
Quarterstaff specialization for the best backstabs
Quarterstaff +3
Staff of striking
In BG2 SoA:
Kensai lvl 9 or 11/thief
Katana specialization for overall badassness and backstabs
Celestial fury
BG2 SoA + ToB run:
Kensai lvl 11 or 13/thief
Quarterstaff specialization (you can pick another in the SoA part, you can get 5 in staffs later)
Staff of the ram (+6 heheh) for utter domination
These are some of the strongest builds in the respective games of all possible classes.
But yeah, definitely. You could start with Thief and dual to Fighter as well. As long as you have enough stealth and what you're about is the backstab, sure.*
* The only thing that gives me pause here is that I would want the backstab multiplier x3 at Thief 5. Which with Thief leveling you get rather fast. If you start with Thief and dual to Fighter at Thief 2 the backstab multiplier will never be higher than x2.
Honestly, you can't really go wrong - they're all powerful.
Swashbucklers get great To Hit/Damage gains and are overwhelmingly the best defensively - especially by ToB. Their DPS is a little mediocre relative to the other options though, despite all of the To Hit/Damage gain, because of their lack of APR (even if you offhand Belm/Scarlet/Kundane). Unbuffed, you'll be behind 1.5 APR behind the multiclasses and 2 behind the dualclasses. Double that for Imp Haste. But still, for a no-fuss powerhouse, they're still great. You don't have any downtime, get extremely fast level gains, and great progression. Low HPs (~50 less than DC and ~20 less than the MC), low APR, limited weapon selection to specialize in, and lack of backstab are the downsides to this route.
The multiclass is much slower than the rest, but is also a no-fuss powerhouse and ends up being arguably the best. They end up with the best overall THAC0, access to both Rogue and Warrior HLAs, and although their +Damage pales in comparison to the others, their +APR gives them better overall DPS than the Swashbucklers. Along with the DC, they're quite versatile on weapon selection as well. You can specialize in a non-thief weapon like 2H swords for Carsomyr or flails for Flail of the Ages for example. That way, you can backstab and then swap to your other weapon set for superior auto-attack DPS.
The dualclass options are usually my favorite. However, the meta on how to build them depends on what you want to play. Like @IkMarc said, the optimal times to DC are dependent on your respective run, whether it's a full Trilogy run, a BG1-only contained run, or a SoA-only run. I pretty much agree with his assessment, except I'll probably focus more on dualing at lvl 9 or 13 for a Kensai/Thief - that's when you get the biggest bonuses. Dualling at Lvl 9 is my personal favorite, because there's low investment, very little downtime, and you'll be noticably more powerful than the other routes for the vast majority of your SoA playthrough. Unlike the lvl 13 dual (assuming a full party), you'll actually get to play your completed build for almost the entirety of SoA, instead of waiting to regain your class.
For overall best DPS and backstab, I think this is the best route. You get the most APR and your +Damage/To Hit is very front loaded in comparison to the more gradual progression of the other routes. SBs don't really pass up the Lvl9 DC in overall +Damage/To Hit until the start-mid of ToB (~4-4.5M XP mark), and doesn't pass up the Lvl13 DC until the XP cap. Even then, the DC would have 2-2.5 APR over the SB (this is assuming BGEE, True GM mod for BG2 classic, and BG2EE would retain its unnerfed GM). In comparison to the MC, you'll have +6-7 bonus damage advantage with the DC for the entire game, so your backstabs are always superior (not to mention you unlock the 5x multiplier quicker). The MC doesn't catch up/surpass the lvl9 DC in overall THAC0 until the 3.5-4M XP mark (5-5.5M XP mark for the lvl13 DC. The biggest drawback for these routes is terrible AC, though this can be alleviated via Barkskin from a Druid/Ranger or just hit-and-run with Boots of Speed.
Thief (any kit) -> Fighter is best for a BG1-only contained run. They can obtain 5* GM in any weapon of your choice as early as 5250 total XP if you DC at level 2... Pure Fighters/Archers can't even obtain GM in BG1 with the XP cap at 161K. Your thieving ability would be dependent on when you DC of course. Your backstabs would also be pretty mediocre as well. Assassin would be best if you DC right away, but you'll only be decent in one thief ability (lock-picking is prob the best to choose). You get +1 To Hit/Dmg and a Poison Weapon charge a day right off the bat.
Backstab/trap immunities aside (which only really become relevant in ToB and/or heavily modded games), I agree on some of the stronger combos mentioned.
F/T multi has great versatility, and quite decent stats. Losing some thief levels is usually not so relevant in the face of fighter bonuses. Mixed HLAs can be quite powerful, though the same restrictions apply regarding backstab/trap immunities in ToB.
Kensai->Thief can do some seriously sick backstabs, as well as become very resilient once UAI removes Kensai restrictions. I don't like dualing any other level than 13; it takes a while to gain back levels to be sure, but then again Thiefs level the fastest of all classes and will be there in no time. The extra 1/2 APR makes a HUGE difference!
Swashbuckler->Fighter is my personal favorite for power-gaming at high difficulties. They can dual at various levels, I've even dualed past 3m XP just to be able to use utility weapons later thanks to UAI (which btw remains in effect while Thief levels are disabled). They are essentially a fighter that can open lock/find traps and dispel illusions, which is all you really need later on.
Assassin->Fighter is quite fun to play, and a good choice for BG1 as well. Poison is strongest there, though it remains relevant later on in the saga, too, especially against mages. They, too, can dual at various levels, though preferably one with a backstab-multiplier breakpoint (5/9/13/17/21). See the chunks fly! Not as effective by ToB though, given the ubiquitous backstab-immunities.
In the end, it comes down to personal preference, the game you are playing (how many/which mods etc.) and how much you care for efficiency. Keep in mind that in the end, you may not necessarily end up saving yourself time setting up backstabs, if they come at the expense of raw fighting power - which you are more likely to use the majority of the time.
P.S.: Disregarding Mislead-Backstab for this discussion, as it's obviously very, very broken. Same goes for SoM shenanigans.
there is a new evil Thief (female I think)
any one know what race and/or kit
maybe it will be Monty's sister
There are certainly advantages to being a more powerful Fighter by dualing a Thief at level 2. Grandmastery is great. Better THAC0 progression too. Massive HP. And if you start with an Assassin you get poison damage as well.
But a Kensai's Kai Shot with x3 backstab damage, plus other thief skills, it just sounds like more fun to me. Even just a vanilla Fighter 3 dualed to Thief is getting that sweet x3 backstab multipler at Thief 5.