Fighter/Cleric - Dual Wielding Maces?

Melicamp

I have to be honest - A beefy fighter/cleric (7/7) with a high strength, dual wielding a +1 Stupefier in their main hand and a +2 Mace in their off hand, 2 slots Mace, 3 slots 2 Weapon Style, 1 slot Sling, seems to be ridiculous, especially with the 25% stun chance on the main-hand wep. Anyone else do a similar build, or something a little different?

Nifft

That's true of pretty much any 7th level warrior wielding Stupefier.

Brutal weapon.

Darrylson

Ranger/cleric would probably be better just for the two free pips in two-weapon style at level 1.

Have they fixed the bug were ranger/clerics have access to all druid and cleric spells in EE?

TJ_Hooker

Darrylson said:

Ranger/cleric would probably be better just for the two free pips in two-weapon style at level 1.

Have they fixed the bug were ranger/clerics have access to all druid and cleric spells in EE?

I'm almost positive that they haven't.

Wanderon

TJ_Hooker said:

Darrylson said:

Ranger/cleric would probably be better just for the two free pips in two-weapon style at level 1.

Have they fixed the bug were ranger/clerics have access to all druid and cleric spells in EE?

I'm almost positive that they haven't.

It's not a bug it's a feature... ;-)

KidCarnival

The feature is still around, I used it in Black Pits yesterday.

Oxford_Guy

Darrylson said:

Ranger/cleric would probably be better just for the two free pips in two-weapon style at level 1.

Have they fixed the bug were ranger/clerics have access to all druid and cleric spells in EE?

It's still bugged

helmo1977

Wanderon said:

TJ_Hooker said:

Darrylson said:

Ranger/cleric would probably be better just for the two free pips in two-weapon style at level 1.


Have they fixed the bug were ranger/clerics have access to all druid and cleric spells in EE?

I'm almost positive that they haven't.

It's not a bug it's a feature... ;-)

Then It is a completely our of balance feature. Anybody would tihnk it is a bug

Splod

I'd like to dual maces, but I generally have Minsc fulfilling that role. And there aren't enough good maces to both be in that role.
So I'll stick to hammers for CHARNAME.

Lemernis

I'm currently running a dual-classed human Berserker 3/Cleric (now at Cleric 7) who dual-wields those maces and I wouldn't call him overpowered, necessarily, but he is very formidable indeed. I don't bother to buff him up very often, it just isn't necessary. But when he's buffed he's a powerhouse. Current profs:

Mace ++++
Two Weapon Style ++

I normally keep the profs balanced between the main weapon of choice and TWS. But here I wanted to see how it would work out to get him to grandmastery in Mace (he'll get another pip at Cleric 8) at the cost of the -4 offhand penalty.

Lord_Tansheron

I think grandmastery should be the priority. The second pip in two weapon fighting basically equals a THAC0 bonus of 2, while GM gives 1/2 APR. That should be better than the THAC0 bonus for a fighter-type character, especially if you're wielding Stupefier.

Lemernis

Did those of us interested in this subject ever come to a consensus on the question of whether the higher APR for dual-wielding with high mastery or grand mastery ultimately results in more damage over the course of an entire attack if the TWS pips are relatively low (say, 1 or 2)?

HaHaCharade

Lemernis said:

I'm currently running a dual-classed human Berserker 3/Cleric (now at Cleric 7) who dual-wields those maces and I wouldn't call him overpowered, necessarily, but he is very formidable indeed. I don't bother to buff him up very often, it just isn't necessary. But when he's buffed he's a powerhouse. Current profs:

Mace ++++
Two Weapon Style ++

I normally keep the profs balanced between the main weapon of choice and TWS. But here I wanted to see how it would work out to get him to grandmastery in Mace (he'll get another pip at Cleric 8) at the cost of the -4 offhand penalty.

Why not dual him at 6th level? Do you just want the cleric levels that much earlier?

Wanderon

helmo1977 said:

Wanderon said:

TJ_Hooker said:

Darrylson said:

Ranger/cleric would probably be better just for the two free pips in two-weapon style at level 1.


Have they fixed the bug were ranger/clerics have access to all druid and cleric spells in EE?

I'm almost positive that they haven't.

It's not a bug it's a feature... ;-)

Then It is a completely our of balance feature. Anybody would tihnk it is a bug

For my money the whole OP issue due to them getting access to some druid spells is simply overblown - they don't get any more spells per day they just get a larger selection to choose from - as to whether they should or should not get them as far as I am concerned it's just a matter of house rules - but then I only play CRPGs - not PnP so I tend not to worry too much about things like that - if I find the character stops being fun to play - I'll stop playing them - hasn't happened yet tho ... ;-)

Lord_Tansheron

Lemernis said:

Did those of us interested in this subject ever come to a consensus on the question of whether the higher APR for dual-wielding with high mastery or grand mastery ultimately results in more damage over the course of an entire attack if the TWS pips are relatively low (say, 1 or 2)?

Pretty sure that cannot be decided by a blanket statement, since THAC0 is involved. That means the effective damage depends on both your THAC0 and the enemy's AC, i.e. the lower your THAC0/the higher the enemy AC, the more valuable THAC0 becomes.

On average though, I'd say APR wins out over THAC0 since your base THAC0 should be decent already, and most enemies don't have a stupidly high AC; though it could very well be that even against high AC, APR wins out.

Lemernis

@HaHaCharade I chose to dual at Berserker 3 in order to get Fighter skills back relatively fast. That's preferable to me over whatever advantages I might get from dualing at level 6.

TJ_Hooker

Lemernis said:

Did those of us interested in this subject ever come to a consensus on the question of whether the higher APR for dual-wielding with high mastery or grand mastery ultimately results in more damage over the course of an entire attack if the TWS pips are relatively low (say, 1 or 2)?

Putting a 3rd pip in TWS will grant you +2 to hit with your off hand (relative to your current THAC0), while getting GM will grant +1 to hit and damage with both hands, a bonus to speed factor, and an extra half an attack with your main hand. That seems like a pretty good trade for simply being 1 THAC0 worse in your offhand.

Debaser

@Melicamp

In the long run Cleric / Ranger (Half-Elf Multi-Class) might be better over the course of the game due to the access to Druid Spells (Which people fight about since it's very powerful/not cannon to pen and paper as it stands in game mechanics), also you start with two free profinciency points in Dual Wielding at level 1!

So with the four slots you get I would do as follows at lvl 1:

++ Mace
++ Hammer
++ Dual Wielding

At level 3 up dual wielding to max +++

At level 6 put one + in Flails.

When BG2 comes out max out Flails at level 9, after this nothing you put points in will matter one lick. Flails give you The Flail of the Ages which is the best weapon in the game hands down in BG 2. And Crom Faeyr (Uber Hammer!) will make a great offhand (Maxing Strength out to 25 in the endgame) Mace of Disruption is great as well as Defender of Easthaven (Flail +2) when progressing in BG2 or situationally.

Hammers and Mace in BG1 will give you:

Stupifier +1 (Mace)

Ashadeena (Hammer +2, +1 Electrical) - Easy to get VERY early to use as an offhand for Stupifier. The Electrical damage can interrupt casters who are stoneskinned. My fave 1 handed blunt weapon from BG1 classic.

Staff-Mace +2 (On Werewolf Isle) - Better damage than Stupifier but no stun. (*NOTE Apparently this is not a mace anymore in BGEE...so maybe give it to a staff user as it's been updated to just "Staff Status" apparently)

(And Hammer +1, +4 Vs Giant-kin is interesting but comes a little late for my tastes)

There is a Flail +2 you can buy in BG1 but it has no abilities. (Unlike Defender of Easthaven in BG2 which grants AC Bonus like a +2 Shield and additional good stuff for damage reduction)

If you go Fighter / Cleric Multi-Class go Dwarf...slower progression but you gain better saving throws in place of fewer spells and prof points.

Fafnir

The Staff Mace +2 is a staff, not a mace.

Debaser

Fafnir said:

The Staff Mace +2 is a staff, not a mace.

@Fafnir

IT'S BOTH!!! (Counts as! In Vanilla BG1 I used to use it!) In Tutu I dual wielded it with Ashadeena...but it's both a Mace and a Staff. I guess it's like a ribbed for his/her pleasure Baton? =P

Lord_Tansheron

Debaser said:

And Crom Faeyr (Uber Hammer!) will make a great offhand (Maxing Strength out to 25 in the endgame)

Crom Faeyr may not be the best choice, as a cleric easily reaches 25 STR through Draw upon Holy Might. You may want to give the hammer to someone who doesn't have that buff instead.

AHF

Debaser said:

Fafnir said:

The Staff Mace +2 is a staff, not a mace.

@Fafnir

IT'S BOTH!!! (Counts as! In Vanilla BG1 I used to use it!) In Tutu I dual wielded it with Ashadeena...but it's both a Mace and a Staff. I guess it's like a ribbed for his/her pleasure Baton? =P

Not in BG:EE. Viconia has a 2 point lower thac0 with the staff mace than with stupifier (+1 for the staff-mace's additional enchantment and -3 for non-proficient with the staff-mace).

Debaser

AHF said:

Debaser said:

Fafnir said:

The Staff Mace +2 is a staff, not a mace.

@Fafnir

IT'S BOTH!!! (Counts as! In Vanilla BG1 I used to use it!) In Tutu I dual wielded it with Ashadeena...but it's both a Mace and a Staff. I guess it's like a ribbed for his/her pleasure Baton? =P

Not in BG:EE. Viconia has a 2 point lower thac0 with the staff mace than with stupifier (+1 for the staff-mace's additional enchantment and -3 for non-proficient with the staff-mace).

Really?

HAHA!!!

Oh well, I guess save the Staff-Mace for Jaheria! =P Honestly Stupifier and Ashadeena are FINE for the whole game.

@AHF, @Fafnir

I updated my post above to reflect that...I had no idea it didn't count as both anymore.

AHF

Lord_Tansheron said:

Debaser said:

And Crom Faeyr (Uber Hammer!) will make a great offhand (Maxing Strength out to 25 in the endgame)

Crom Faeyr may not be the best choice, as a cleric easily reaches 25 STR through Draw upon Holy Might. You may want to give the hammer to someone who doesn't have that buff instead.

Either way, there is a great hammer in BG1 and a great hammer in TOB so with the limited number of other options out there, there isn't much downside to getting the proficiency for a F/C even if you don't have your cleric use Crom Faeyr.

Lord_Tansheron

I totally agree, F/C has enough pips to spare. Still, never hurts to remove some of those stubborn preconceptions like "CF is a cleric weapon"... Also, the best cleric off-hand imo is Defender of Easthaven (barring situational immunities). So sad all the +APR weapons are bladed!

AHF

Lord_Tansheron said:

So sad all the +APR weapons are bladed!

Agreed. Blade users get all the APR weapons and all the GWW (greater werewolf) weapons.

Lord_Tansheron

Just out of curiosity, is the whole ban-on-blades thing implemented consistently throughout faiths even in PnP? I get the whole "die by the sword" idea that inspired the system (along with just being something unique and cool), but something like, say, a cleric of Lolth? I could totally see them cut people into kibbles...

[Deleted User]

Lord_Tansheron said:

Just out of curiosity, is the whole ban-on-blades thing implemented consistently throughout faiths even in PnP? I get the whole "die by the sword" idea that inspired the system (along with just being something unique and cool), but something like, say, a cleric of Lolth? I could totally see them cut people into kibbles...

PnP makes exceptions all over the place for clerics of specific faiths.