Dragon Disciples and Stat Boosts
Madhax
Member Posts: 1,416
First off, I should make this clear: I hate being the guy to bitch about a new kit. As I said in the poll thread in General, Dragon Disciples are my favorite of the new kits, and I love what you guys are doing with the game overall. I'm sure a lot of discussion went into how to implement these kits into 2e, and I look forward to using all five at some point.
That said, I feel like the constitution bonuses for the Dragon Disciple class are, for lack of a better word, clunky. Sorcerers are already the least stat-dependent class in the game, and as a non-warrior class it's easy to either max the notable constitution bonuses at 16 or ignore them completely. And since sorcerers can't be the short races, the extra constitution doesn't benefit their saves.
Getting an extra 2 constitution by level 15 only really benefits people imposing very strict limitations on their stat rolling, like refusing to re-roll or limiting their reallocation of points. Now, I've pointed out in other threads that Dragon Disciples seem most suited for roleplayers, but I'd still like to see class bonuses that can, if desired, be engineered in a powergamer sense.
So, I looked up the 3rd edition rules for the Dragon Disciple prestige class. Many of the aspects of the class seem difficult or impossible to implement into BGEE, such as growing wings, using them to fly, or performing claw/bite attacks. However, I was intrigued by the Dragon Apotheosis process occuring at level 10, imparting a ton of bonuses to the character beyond those mentioned above.
Here's my pitch: We can keep the +1 constitution at level 5, it's nice. Rather than a further +1 at level 15, why not give Disciples something like +3 strength, +1 dexterity somewhere between levels 10-15? It's a very generous stat boost, but hear me out. 2nd edition sorcerers cannot multiclass in any way, so that hefty strength boost is limited at a single attack per round, with a mage's weapon restrictions, THAC0, proficiency restrictions, etc. It really isn't that useful.
Then why do I want it? Because it would be cool, simple enough. A sorcerer who can potentially reach the 20s in strength naturally, making him able to knock anyone who gets near him across the room and carry the heaviest loot in the party. Hell, it even allows for a more melee-oriented build depending on stat selection: The Disciple can pick phsycial-oriented spells like Shield, Mirror Image and Tenser's Transformation rather than the typical all-out offensive nature of a sorcerer's spell book, turning the kit into a fire-breathing, flame-bathing, staff-wielding melee combatant. Could be fun.
The point is, the constitution boosts, especially the second, seem superfluous to the kit, and replacing one or both bonuses with strength/dexterity gives the kit more unique flavor and further distinguishes it from the Sorcerer. I know you developers have your plates full, but I hope you take this under consideration as you work your way towards BG2EE.
That said, I feel like the constitution bonuses for the Dragon Disciple class are, for lack of a better word, clunky. Sorcerers are already the least stat-dependent class in the game, and as a non-warrior class it's easy to either max the notable constitution bonuses at 16 or ignore them completely. And since sorcerers can't be the short races, the extra constitution doesn't benefit their saves.
Getting an extra 2 constitution by level 15 only really benefits people imposing very strict limitations on their stat rolling, like refusing to re-roll or limiting their reallocation of points. Now, I've pointed out in other threads that Dragon Disciples seem most suited for roleplayers, but I'd still like to see class bonuses that can, if desired, be engineered in a powergamer sense.
So, I looked up the 3rd edition rules for the Dragon Disciple prestige class. Many of the aspects of the class seem difficult or impossible to implement into BGEE, such as growing wings, using them to fly, or performing claw/bite attacks. However, I was intrigued by the Dragon Apotheosis process occuring at level 10, imparting a ton of bonuses to the character beyond those mentioned above.
Here's my pitch: We can keep the +1 constitution at level 5, it's nice. Rather than a further +1 at level 15, why not give Disciples something like +3 strength, +1 dexterity somewhere between levels 10-15? It's a very generous stat boost, but hear me out. 2nd edition sorcerers cannot multiclass in any way, so that hefty strength boost is limited at a single attack per round, with a mage's weapon restrictions, THAC0, proficiency restrictions, etc. It really isn't that useful.
Then why do I want it? Because it would be cool, simple enough. A sorcerer who can potentially reach the 20s in strength naturally, making him able to knock anyone who gets near him across the room and carry the heaviest loot in the party. Hell, it even allows for a more melee-oriented build depending on stat selection: The Disciple can pick phsycial-oriented spells like Shield, Mirror Image and Tenser's Transformation rather than the typical all-out offensive nature of a sorcerer's spell book, turning the kit into a fire-breathing, flame-bathing, staff-wielding melee combatant. Could be fun.
The point is, the constitution boosts, especially the second, seem superfluous to the kit, and replacing one or both bonuses with strength/dexterity gives the kit more unique flavor and further distinguishes it from the Sorcerer. I know you developers have your plates full, but I hope you take this under consideration as you work your way towards BG2EE.
14
Comments
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I'd rather have something like a small, fixed bonus to attack rolls (say +4 over 20 levels) and a small fixed bonus to damage (+2 over 20 levels, maybe at 5 and 15), so you'll be notably more effective when using Melf's Meteors or Phantom Blade.
A +1 strength bonus would encourage meta-gaming. I see a +3 strength bonus as simply encouraging the stacking of a certain stat, something that every class except Sorcerers have. Why push for exactly 19 strength when you can reach 22 and beyond? It's not like Sorcerers have much else to put their attribute points into. And metagaming the strength score would be no worse than metagaming the constitution score.
A fixed bonus to attack rolls and damage would be nice, but is much less sexy and not particularly draconic, in my opinion.
Let me re-phrase: the benefit for breaking the "19 barrier" (getting 19 or over) is so disproportionate to what you'd get if you failed to break the 19 barrier.
I agree about meta-gaming the Con bonus, and that's part of why I'd prefer to remove it. (The other part is that it's from 3e, where a +2 Con bonus is always meaningful. In 2e it's not always meaningful, so that part of the class should be re-worked.)
It's true that the strength bonus does disproportionately favor a high starting strength and encourages meta-gaming. But many classes and kits are in a similar situation. Clerics benefit more from DUHM, and Barbarians and Berserkers get more out of rage. And any class at all gets a stat book in BG1, making starting with 18 strength an extremely potent feature for any PC at all. A DD can start with 18 strength and reach 19 without any Dragon Apotheosis bonus at all.
At least Dragon Disciples have their melee prowess mitigated by the inability to be a half-orc, as well as a mage's terrible THAC0 table, inferior weapon proficiencies, and lack of APR.
A more 2e way of representing Draconic Apotheosis might be something like -- at various levels, you Strength is set to an increasing base (or left alone if it was already higher).
Level 5: 16
Level 7: 17
Level 9: 18
Level 11: 18/50
Level 13: 18/75
Level 15: 18/90
Level 17: 19
Level 19: 20
Level 21: 21
That would encourage starting out with a wimpy low-Strength mage looking wimp, who suddenly grows muscles like crazy. I foresee amusing Minsc dialogs.
Maybe if we shift it forward a few notches? 19 strength by level 13 would make much more of an impact.
I do think he could use a bonus to attacks somehow... maybe a new Divination spell? (True Strike?)
In 2ED it's all very different. There are very few ways to improve your stats. In addition the stat benefits aren't very linear - from 8 to 14 there are typically no benefits, and then significant benefits for each point up to 18 (this effect is even more pronounced for strength).
That said, the RDD stat bonuses are pretty useless in BG where you can't mix and match character levels. RDD's can't multi class, you can't dual into an RDD (only out of RDD) and magic users really only get powerful once they get to high levels (which discourages dualling out of RDD). It's trivial to get 16 con (or even 18) with the BG stat rolling system, particularly as other stats mean so little for RDD/sorcerors. Adding more con bonuses, or even a strength bonus really wouldn't make much difference.
And yes, it DOES make the difference
BG: reaching a very high STR, even for a mage, is a walk in the park. Examples: 4 giants belt, Draw Upon Holy Might, tome + Lum's machine, Hell's trial.
To be honest I've never really seen the point of the RDD prestige class unless you are going to epic levels (past 20). Otherwise they lose out on a lot of spellcasting ability in exchange for some not hugely impressive melee combat boosts (str, con and armor boosts). Of course if you are going to epic levels then arcane casters don't really progress beyond 20 anyway, so anything else is better than more caster levels.
Fighter 4 / Bard 1 / RDD 10
And you have a lvl16 juggernaut that can read scrolls. In NWN2 one of the strongest and most common build was, in fact, Fighter4/Bard1/RDD10/Frenzied Berserker5.
I never played much 3ED so, because of the bard/sorceror prerequisite, I always assumed RDD would get added to a caster type build (which wouldn't really work well).
But it does mean that the RDD hasn't translated well into Baldurs Gate where it is essentially a weakened sorceror with some melee bonuses.
You get a winged smite-monkey with exactly two Sorcerer spells, and you could pick spells without a somatic component so you could cast them in full plate (spells like true strike, backed by full Power Attack and +16 Strength... yeah, that'll leave a mark).
With that set-up, you only lose 4 BAB, so at level 20 you've got 4 iterative attacks.
The DD bonus spells can be allocated to your Paladin casting or Sorcerer spells per day, and the Paladin list was actually pretty decent by the end of 3.5e.
As a 1/day power it's something I'm just going to forget about, which is unfortunate, since it's a fairly cool ability.
I'd suggest something like 3/day at 5th level (instead of +1 Con) and 6/day at 15th level (instead of the other +1 Con).
The Fire Resistance is less sexy now that I'm aware of the max 127% resist. I had ideas of pushing myself to 200%+ FR and going nuts in the middle of a crowd, but that's less likely now...
Stack on Tomes and everything else and you might as well call yourself Clusterf*ck. Less is sometimes more. Good luck writing that background. Lol.
At level 15 (or so), your Strength is set to 18.
At level 17 (or so), your Strength is increased to 18/00.
At level 20, your Strength is increased to 19.
At level 22, your Strength increases to 20.
At level 25, your Strength increases to 21.
At level 27, your Strength increases to 22.
At level 30, your Strength increases to 23.
That gets rid of a lot of the "cheese"--and because most sorcerers aren't going to have 18 Strength anyway, it gives a sizable bonus at a later level with significant flavor. By the time you reach level 30, you're properly as strong as a true dragon.
I like the idea of the STR boost, it makes a lot more sense.
But: 1st, starting with a 18/* you end up with 19 in BG1. So setting it to 18 once you reach lvl15 wouldn't be a good move.
2nd, we're talking about a Sorcerer: STR score can be helpful just at low, medium levels. Later on the enemies will have such a low AC that it will just matter for carrying stuff.
I'd suggest to simply exchange the CON bonus with a STR one and maybe introduce new stat boosts / cold weakness in BG2:EE.
Maybe you're using the draconic archetype to shape your innate divine essence, and you shape hellfire into a breath weapon attack purely for style reasons.
Paladins shape their divine essence into a font for Lawful Goodness, so I don't really see why a Sorcerer couldn't shape his divine essence into a source of fire. Murder and burnination are closer to each other than murder and Lay On Hands.