Kensai Signature Weapon & Grand mastery

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Debaser

I'm not sure if this should be a restriction, but lemme think on it...I however kind of like the idea.

Fafnir

The restrictions are harsh enough as is.

Lord_Tansheron

If you restrict their other weapons, then you end up LESS proficient than a pure fighter - that doesn't make any sense! This sort of thing works for, say, Archers, because pure Rangers can't achieve GM with bows. With fighters however, anyone can achieve GM, so why gimp Kensais without anything in return?

So what you'd have to do is give some sort of massive bonus for your chosen weapon, and that weapon only. Not sure how or if you could even do that with the BG engine as it is.

toanwrath

I always thought they should be limited this way, but also should get a slight AC Progression (1 every 6 levels even) or maybe let them start at level 1 with high mastery. Most weapons have. +2 or +3 variant in BG1, most have a +3,4 or 5 in bg2, so it's not like you are entirely limited.

Rajick

Just make it so you choose a weapon like rangers choose an enemy monster and give an added bonus to that weapon when using it.

toanwrath

Rajick said:

Just make it so you choose a weapon like rangers choose an enemy monster and give an added bonus to that weapon when using it.

Actually, that is an excellent idea IMO. I still think they should also get a slight slight AC bump, but this with the limited mastery is cool.

Mokona

Leave it be. I don't even play Kensai and that sounds silly.

Chippy

What if you did this, but implemented something like the Samurai base class with the Ancestral Daisho ability to sacrifice magic items to improve the weapon of choice?. I expect this will result in a massive headache on Overhaul's part to prevent any foot-shooting (or just severing) choices, and balancing issues but I've every confidence they can pull it off.

Failing that, on my next playthrough I'm going to look into how to mod eapon that grows in power (like Dakkon's Zerth Blade in PS:T) as a harder approach to the game (with a character that can't use any other magic items).

AHF

The problem with the current Kensai kit is less that the Kensai can specialize in other weapons and more that the Kensai special bonuses apply to any weapon usable by the Kensai. So a level 30 Kensai gets +10 to hit and +10 to damage from his class and he gets that whether using the katana in which he has grandmastery or the axe in which he is merely proficient.

If I were going to modify it, I would use something like the suggestion from @Rajick.

iKrivetko

There should be other bonuses to the weapon of choice in that case.

Madhax

I was under the impression that PnP Kensai had this restriction, but gained further mastery in their weapon of choice than an ordinary fighter would through Grandmastery.

If there was an upside to their chosen weapon, I would be interested in this restriction. Otherwise, it doesn't seem like a good change.

(Where is my "Boo likes swords!" option?)

AHF

iKrivetko said:

There should be other bonuses to the weapon of choice in that case.

That is the +1 to hit and +1 to damage every 3 levels.

TJ_Hooker

The idea of limiting their bonuses to a single weapon is intriguing, but perhaps too restrictive? Or maybe I'm just too much of a power gamer, and am scared of things getting nerfed. Would it be possible to let them choose additional 'chosen weapons' at higher levels, like maybe 1 additional weapon every 10 levels or something?

Rhyme

Voted no because:

1. You always have the ability to self-restrict.
2. Somebody could easily make a mod that does this.
3. I can think of several examples where I feel like there are separate weapon proficiencies for weapons that either go together or are functionally the same. Making this change would exacerbate some of the issues I have with the proficiency system.

For example, for number 3, I think that katana and wakizashi should be a paired proficiency. They go together as surely as a rapier/dagger, and I'd hate to think that my kensai who is an expert with a katana could only be so-so with his wakizashi. Likewise, I can't imagine that somebody who has mastered maces couldn't be equally as masterful with a morning star or a war hammer. Same with spears, quarterstaves, and halberds. They're just not that different. But I guess these are general problems with the BG2 proficiency system.

If the proficiency system was the more general version we got in BG1, I'd probably love the idea. But if other proficiencies were limited on the grounds of "They spend all of their time with this one weapon, so they can't master any others", then in exchange for that new penalty, I'd like to see Kensai be able to put all four initial points into the same weapon, instead of being forced to spread them around (which goes against the whole point of the kit description).

Djimmy

I agree with Rhyme. Your suggestion, Bhaaldog, is good in terms of balancing the game but it seems artificial to me.

AHF

TJ_Hooker said:

The idea of limiting their bonuses to a single weapon is intriguing, but perhaps too restrictive? Or maybe I'm just too much of a power gamer, and am scared of things getting nerfed. Would it be possible to let them choose additional chosen weapons at higher levels, like maybe 1 additional weapon every 10 levels or something?

That was my thought -- very much like the Ranger enemy system.

It doesn't make a lot of sense that a Kensai who is superspecialized in short sword gets all the same bonuses from using a war hammer or a halberd.

At the end of the day, this would be lower on my priority list than Ranger/Cleric or some other issues.

Wowo

I'd like to see kensei being able to start with 3 pips in their chosen weapon so they can actually hit GM in Bg1.

Lemernis

Let a modder offer this to the community. It's a neat idea and I would try it, but I wouldn't want to see it forced on all players.

Nifft

If people want to play the Kensai in a way that's different from how I play the Kensai, they should be allowed to do that.

It won't really hurt my games if they do.

(In the PnP world, this kind of thinking -- the idea that people must be stopped from "doing it wrong" even though they seem to be having fun -- is called either "one true way-ism" or "badwrongfun".)

AHF

Nifft said:

(In the PnP world, this kind of thinking -- the idea that people must be stopped from "doing it wrong" even though they seem to be having fun -- is called either "one true way-ism" or "badwrongfun".)

Or not allowing players to cheese the DM. If I told my DM that my character dual classed from Ranger to Cleric at level 7 or below and that I still expected to have 7th level druid spells before the party's single class druid (this is how it works with the improperly coded Ranger spell bonus to clerics), I don't think he would have commended me for fighting "one true way-ism"! I think his reaction would have been the same when I told him that my kensai specializing in short swords expected all my kensai bonuses to apply when said Kensai used a war hammer or halberds.

I don't feel like this is a change that has to be made and so am fine with the "let's not change it" line of thinking, but let's not whitewash this by implying a reasonable DM would allow this kind of stuff in PnP. This is exactly how PnP would deviate from a video game where the game engine can lead to some twisted results.

Dee

I think you're approaching it from the wrong angle.

The Kensai should have the ability to start with a single weapon that grows steadily more powerful as he gains levels. Not a single type of weapon: a single weapon. The kensai bonds with his signature weapon and then uses no other weapons for his entire career unless his signature weapon breaks; and at that point it's about as traumatizing as a wizard losing his familiar.

My suggestion (for a mod, let's make that clear ) would be to have the kensai start off in BG1 with a +1 weapon of his choice, chosen from a list of predetermined options through a scripted dialog at the start of the game. And then have a script that grants the kensai a bonus to AC, THAC0, and damage while wielding that weapon. The same bonus the Kensai gets now--but set it so it only applies with that weapon. If you really want to make it a drastic difference, have the same script apply a penalty to all of these stats when wielding anything other than the Kensai's signature weapon.

Then, allow the kensai to wear armor up to Studded Leather (or light chain mail, such as elven or mithral).

Voila--you have a Kensai that follows the PnP progression and isn't totally gimped. Don't take away the fighter's ability to grandmaster unless you're giving it something else to compensate. For one thing, I'm pretty sure that's impossible to do with the existing engine.

(For BG2, you can have the script occur but not create the weapon--and then place the created weapon in, say, an enemy's inventory.)

AHF

Aosaw said:

For one thing, I'm pretty sure that's impossible to do with the existing engine.

While my answer was "Yes" I am now in line with bonus idea from Rajick on this rather than the grandmastery notion originally presented.

With that said, isn't the coding on this similar to what classes like the Archer and Dwarven Defender do? They deviate from the normal proficiency charts for their classes. The difference would be the process of designating the weapon type ala the Ranger racial enemy and having that adaptable based on the selection in character creation. You may be right that this is impossible and that it has to be set based simply on class but given that there are already other conditional abilities (like the critical strike HLA which requires a prereq ability to access) I wonder if there isn't a way around this (perhaps allowing the selection of proficiencies through a HLA-like process?).

Nifft

AHF said:

Or not allowing players to cheese the DM.

In a single-player game with this kind of console and mod capability, the player is the GM.

AHF

Nifft said:

AHF said:

Or not allowing players to cheese the DM.

In a single-player game with this kind of console and mod capability, the player is the GM.

Debatable. For me, a DM has to be a neutral who is not personally vested with a conflict of interest. I view the player as the player, not a DM, since the player can't really fill the role of referee or arbitar due to the inherent conflict of interest.

Accepting that (which you don't have to do), I still don't mind leaving this alone and letting people decide whether they want to cheese or not. It is a single-player game so it can be up to them. But let's admit that a kensai specializing in short swords is getting a cheesy bonus to thrown axe missile weapons or to war hammers, etc. and then say that people can decide to enjoy this as a class feature or not. Once you start talking about PnP DM concepts as a way of justifying this, I find that much harder to accept than simply saying people enjoy it and want to keep it.

Xavioria

YAY Kensai should have a familiar... but it'll be a weapon!! like Lilacor but less annoying... or MORE annoying... or sexy MAYBE the familiar weapon will make weapon babbies with Lilacor... *GASP*

Nifft

AHF said:

Nifft said:

AHF said:

Or not allowing players to cheese the DM.

In a single-player game with this kind of console and mod capability, the player is the GM.

Once you start talking about PnP DM concepts as a way of justifying this, I find that much harder to accept than simply saying people enjoy it and want to keep it.

I'll note that you were the one who brought PnP DM concepts into this discussion, and leave it at that.

AHF

Nifft said:

AHF said:

Nifft said:

AHF said:

Or not allowing players to cheese the DM.

In a single-player game with this kind of console and mod capability, the player is the GM.

Once you start talking about PnP DM concepts as a way of justifying this, I find that much harder to accept than simply saying people enjoy it and want to keep it.

I'll note that you were the one who brought PnP DM concepts into this discussion, and leave it at that.

??

(In the PnP world, this kind of thinking -- the idea that people must be stopped from "doing it wrong" even though they seem to be having fun -- is called either "one true way-ism" or "badwrongfun".)

In a single-player game with this kind of console and mod capability, the player is the GM.

Your version of the PnP world is apparently very different than my experience where you could reference the "PnP world" as a justification for a Kensai getting their bonus on very different weapons in which they aren't proficient (e.g., Kensai with GM in shortword gets the kensai-specific bonus on thrown weapons and flails, among other non-proficient weapons). My experience with the PnP world always involved a DM that wouldn't let people illogically abuse game mechanics -- especially when the starting point is as narrowly defined as a class which is intended to gain certain advantages through highly focused specialization in a single weapon. In order for me to connect the defense of the Kensai mechanic with the "PnP world" or a "DM", there would have to be some logically creative rationale for the Kensai bonus applying across all types of melee weapons and applying to certain ranged weapons otherwise this would be precisely the type of situation that wouldn't fly in the PnP world.

Again, I am fine with the rationale of "I enjoy this so go mod the game if you think there is a better way but don't take away my Kensai bonus applying to every weapon usable by a Kensai no matter how different from the weapon my character has chosen to focus on" but I can't wrap my head around the idea that this would fly in the "PnP world" without some type of creative rationale that no one has tried to articulate yet in this thread.

Fenghoang

TBH, I always wondered why the Kensai kit wasn't specialized in swords, considering the word basically means Sword Prodigy and is obviously based on anyone of the Asian "wandering swordsman" archetypes. I know it's probably a faux-Asian class, but at least try to be accurate...

Nifft

AHF said:

Nifft said:

AHF said:

Nifft said:

AHF said:

Or not allowing players to cheese the DM.

In a single-player game with this kind of console and mod capability, the player is the GM.

Once you start talking about PnP DM concepts as a way of justifying this, I find that much harder to accept than simply saying people enjoy it and want to keep it.

I'll note that you were the one who brought PnP DM concepts into this discussion, and leave it at that.

??

(In the PnP world, this kind of thinking -- the idea that people must be stopped from "doing it wrong" even though they seem to be having fun -- is called either "one true way-ism" or "badwrongfun".)

In a single-player game with this kind of console and mod capability, the player is the GM.

Your version of the PnP world is apparently very different than my experience where you could reference the "PnP world" as a justification for a Kensai getting their bonus on very different weapons in which they aren't proficient (e.g., Kensai with GM in shortword gets the kensai-specific bonus on thrown weapons and flails, among other non-proficient weapons). My experience with the PnP world always involved a DM that wouldn't let people illogically abuse game mechanics -- especially when the starting point is as narrowly defined as a class which is intended to gain certain advantages through highly focused specialization in a single weapon. In order for me to connect the defense of the Kensai mechanic with the "PnP world" or a "DM", there would have to be some logically creative rationale for the Kensai bonus applying across all types of melee weapons and applying to certain ranged weapons otherwise this would be precisely the type of situation that wouldn't fly in the PnP world.

Again, I am fine with the rationale of "I enjoy this so go mod the game if you think there is a better way but don't take away my Kensai bonus applying to every weapon usable by a Kensai no matter how different from the weapon my character has chosen to focus on" but I can't wrap my head around the idea that this would fly in the "PnP world" without some type of creative rationale that no one has tried to articulate yet in this thread.

First point: you brought up PnP DMs, then you "find it hard to accept" any argument which relied on bringing up PnP DMs. Thus you've denounced your own arguments.

Second point: through history, there have been many fighting styles which relied on multiple weapons, or which applied equally to different weapons: off the top of my head, something like Florentine fencing. That kind of military history isn't really my thing, but if it is someone's thing, he can model that by using the Kensai with those two kinds of weapons. I don't see any reason to take away his candy.

What conclusive, logical proof do you have that Kensai benefits should NOT work on other weapons? Base your answer in historical precedent, as I've done.

Dee

Guys, let's keep the discussion on an even keel. This isn't a meeting of parliament, and we don't have to tear down our opponents as well as their arguments...