100% agree. As far as I know, you can't get Baeloth, Coran and Yeslick until around level 5-6 though. Might want to use Rasaad (if you want belt), Dorn and/or Brawen until you can get them.
Dorn is pure damage - crits for around 50 at level 1. First time I used him, he was killed in 1 shot by a kobold. Ridiculous
You can get Coran and Yeslisk before reaching level 5/6 if you do the story line stuff without adventuring out too much. It makes the game a bit more challenging in my opinion. I pick up Branwen and Dorn before though. You can have Yeslick and Dorn if you have Dorn first.
I NEVER add Rasaad until AFTER i finish the cloakwood (except on the 1st BGEE run when I didnt know how awful he was).
I try and finish Dorns, Rasaad and Neras quest as soon as I can because I really dont like them that much. Dorn is the best in my opinion. The others talk entirely too much about stupid things. Dorn seems like he will have some upside in BG2EE seeing his interest in your "power".
Sadly two of the best characters can't be used together: Kagain and Yeslick. That said I'd advise using one of them in your game. Kagain with the right gear (read: Big Fisted Belt and Guantlets of Dexterity) is an unstoppable juggernaught with Strength 19, Dexterity 18, and Constitution 20. No one (barring the Charname as a Dwarf) can have these stats even with tomes. Yeslick is a great tank aswell with those two items but his HP and saves (due to shorty save bonuses) wont be as high as Kagains and Yeslick cannot put more than two pips in a weapon since he is a multiclass fighter/cleric. His innate dispel magic ability is the icing on the cake though and is useful in many situations early game and late. He also can fill two roles: frontliner and primary healing.
For a caster your two best options are either Edwin or Baeloth. Edwin has more spells than any other wizard in the game due to his unremoveable amulet and since he is a wizard he can know any spell since he learns them from scrolls. Baeloth has a lot more spells per day than Edwin (and more spells known than any Sorcerer should making him better than even a Charname sorcerer imo) but he comes later on in the game.
Dorn is amazing right out of the gate, his 19 strength and magic sword (that's basically +2 since he's hard pressed not to kill at least 1 enemy in a given day) make him a powerhouse for melee damage. His dex is also not too shabby at 16 meaning that you can give him some pips in Longbow to use composite longbows effectively. With the inclusion of Dorn there is no reason to take Minsc if you're looking for the most effective team. Dorn has the same main weapon proficiency but with higher strength and dexterity.
@GoodSteve Why can't Kagain and Yeslick be used together? Do they try to kill each other, or is it just an opposite alignment issue? If the latter is true, it's still possible to have them in the same party
Many years ago now, but I tried using Kagain and Yeslick in the same party once and they barely bickered. I must have had a high Charisma main character.
... I often see Ajantis, Dorn or the bards listed as "good choice for party leader" due to their charisma, in parties with a non-frontlining charname.
That recommendation is made because
1) it is the leader's CHA (and the whole party's rep, but no-one else's CHA) which determines prices in shops; and
2) reactions in many dialogues are influenced by the CHA of whoever is speaking for the party, which is most often (although not always!) the party leader in random encounters.
I'm certain about both of those factors. I'm less certain about it being the Charname's CHA rather than the leader's CHA which influences infighting probabilities, but it certainly seems that way in my experience. Yes, @Lemernis, you may be right that this works via the morale calculation, but in that case I reckon the morale calculation depends to a large extent on Charname's CHA, although I don't know the exact mechanics of this.
@GoodSteve Why can't Kagain and Yeslick be used together? Do they try to kill each other, or is it just an opposite alignment issue? If the latter is true, it's still possible to have them in the same party
@GoodSteve Why can't Kagain and Yeslick be used together? Do they try to kill each other, or is it just an opposite alignment issue? If the latter is true, it's still possible to have them in the same party
Yes, Kagain and Yeslick are scripted to fight one another under certain conditions. Sometimes you can get away with mixing them, but I'm not sure precisely what conditions will trigger (or prevent) their fight, so sometimes it'll happen and sometimes it won't, and there's probably some randomness in it as well. Therefore using them together is never safe, unless someone works out exactly what does (or doesn't) trigger the infighting.
... The others talk entirely too much about stupid things ...
Well, each to their own. Many players find the background dialogues and banters add a lot to the immersiveness of the game, and one of the most eagerly-awaited mod-compatibility updates is mainly about adding yet more banter ... but fair enough, if that sort of thing is not to your personal taste, then use the characters who have little to say.
Dorn talks more than the original NPCs, too. Just not about such stupid things.
Hello there, Rasaad, I'm a priest of Talos, could you just stop babbling about your faith? I'm not telling you about mine all day either. Just one such case where it must be annoying for charname, and you can change Talos to Helm or Lathander, it comes out as the same. If this was a real conversation, and charname was not completely bewildered by Rasaad's attempts to shove his faith down their throat, a cleric would at least mention the own faith every now and then, if only to find things that are similar or different.
Oh and one wonderful case... Neera summons a damn demon in the battle in Adoy's cave, and a second later, she tells me "Casting spells is not as easy as I make it look... I'm tired". And that isn't stupid? It's probably the most stupid thing anyone could say in that situation.
I would very much prefer it if all BG1 NPCs had the same amount of dialogue - just not about the same topics.
Xzar is the best cleric - gets the same spell level as pure clerics, but also up to 6 arcane caster levels. I usually only keep Viconia or Branwen until Xzar is dualed. The last spot can go to Coran or Dorn. Other than that, I agree with @Debaser that this is the "best" party.
If this was a real conversation, and charname was not completely bewildered by Rasaad's attempts to shove his faith down their throat, a cleric would at least mention the own faith every now and then, if only to find things that are similar or different.
Have you yet tried taking Rasaad and Viconia in the same party? Bear in mind that Viconia is a priestess of Shar, i.e. the same deity followed by Rasaad's enemies in his quest, and Viconia does indeed argue with Rasaad and object to his opinions about her goddess. I reckon it's quite nicely done, good work by Overhaul.
Oh and one wonderful case... Neera summons a damn demon in the battle in Adoy's cave, and a second later, she tells me "Casting spells is not as easy as I make it look... I'm tired". And that isn't stupid? It's probably the most stupid thing anyone could say in that situation.
Oh come on, that's only if she gets a Wild Surge and if the surge-roll is exactly 54 in a range of 1-100, so it's a pretty darn rare event. You can't really blame the devs if her dialogue-tree doesn't take separate account of all the many different possibilities which might arise on a Wild Surge, that'd take a heap of extra work. And anyway, I'm not even convinced that it really is such a stupid remark in that context, I can easily imagine that summoning demons probably would be difficult and tiring.
I didn't have Viconia and Rasaad in the same party for more than 10 minutes. But still, an NPC gets to express more opinion than charname... Yay?
And yeah, that specific wild surge is rare. So is every other; and not all of them result in good things. She doesn't look like it's easy to cast spells at ANY point. It's the main problem she has - that it isn't easy. And in her dialogues, she points that out, too. (Besides, her voice in general is a strong contender for kicking Imoen off the annoyance throne, but that is very much a matter of taste.)
Xzar is the best cleric - gets the same spell level as pure clerics, but also up to 6 arcane caster levels. I usually only keep Viconia or Branwen until Xzar is dualed. The last spot can go to Coran or Dorn. Other than that, I agree with @Debaser that this is the "best" party.
I didn't pick Coran because usually I have to Shadowkeeper his thief skills. Also he's great, but you could have Shar-Teel dualed successfully by the time you get to him and be a back-stabbing machine with higher strength.
As for Xzar Vs Vicky, I like getting Vicky extremely early. (I just go for her immediately), so she progresses fast and with the party as it grows. Also she's got great AC and Magic Resistance. Xzar can't really wear armor and has to be dualed with a Tome of Wisdom, so...he's a trade-off...BUT he's the most flexible spell caster in the game after you invest the time, resources and energy into him to make him so. he's worth it if you're Charname has no healing abilities, or if you're playing a very hard tactical version of the game. At that point I'd take him over Baeloth in order to keep Edwin and Vicky too though for the most flexibility.
If it is the case that NPC fights can be minimised/avoided via high charisma on charname then having a high charisma charname can just become part of the "best party" setup.
With this in mind I really can't see not taking Yeslick AND Kagain as they are both very powerful NPCs. Yeslick is definitely the best cleric with 2 pips in mace for Stupifier (or just sticking with warhammer) and all the cleric buffs while still filling a healer role.
Either way I think the first 4 slots for best party is: Charname (berserker 7/Druid 9) Yeslick Coran Baeloth
The last 2 spots are fairly flexible as all the bases are covered already but the above 3 NPCs are the best. Yeslick and Coran are both so good because they fill multiple roles so well rather than just 1.
If this was a real conversation, and charname was not completely bewildered by Rasaad's attempts to shove his faith down their throat, a cleric would at least mention the own faith every now and then, if only to find things that are similar or different.
Have you yet tried taking Rasaad and Viconia in the same party? Bear in mind that Viconia is a priestess of Shar, i.e. the same deity followed by Rasaad's enemies in his quest, and Viconia does indeed argue with Rasaad and object to his opinions about her goddess. I reckon it's quite nicely done, good work by Overhaul.
I have not had Rasaad "attempt to shove his faith down my throat" or anyone else's throats, for that matter. And Rasaad and Viconia in my party never banter with another.
@Debaser: I like Coran as archer if thief skills are otherwise covered, i.e. dualed Shar-Teel or charname taking over some of the duties. Last time I got him, he had pretty high pickpocket and locks, but pitiful traps, which was the thing my assassin charname had invested in, so that worked out fine. Other than that, yeah, Shar-Teel is the better thief because she's more versatile and you get to decide her skills and profs from the start (including building up on the existing dagger prof). I rarely use Coran as a thief, or anything but an archer. He's clearly not a good choice as only thief.
If you don't have a bard in the party, dualed Xzar can wear Elven Chain. Assuming you also have Baeloth and Edwin who use the arch magi robes, you have 3 powerful casters with the same AC, except Xzar misses out on magic resistance. He can make up for that with cleric self buffs tho and do decent damage in melee.
@KidCarnival Coran as only thief works fine. I think his points are invested open locks and stealth which leaves at least 3 level ups (75 points) for find traps which is more than enough (personally I stop at 80 find traps or whatever is needed for 100 with a potion of perception as there's plenty around).
Beyond that he makes a good backstabber with 2 pips in longsword, a spare pip for single weapon fighting and no reason to have a shield/offhand weapon equipped. Lowish strength isn't a big deal as strength damage isn't multiplied and thac0 should be good enough to hit reliably from stealth. Otherwise there is potions (maybe he could have an item ...).
So, best archer, fine thief, good backstabber. What's not to love?
He had barely any stealth and pickpocket was the highest skill along with locks. I rarely have him in my party though, so maybe I just got him so late that he messed things up. I much prefer Shar-Teel as thief. While she isn't "the best archer", she does very well with backstabs and melee.
He had barely any stealth and pickpocket was the highest skill along with locks. I rarely have him in my party though, so maybe I just got him so late that he messed things up. I much prefer Shar-Teel as thief. While she isn't "the best archer", she does very well with backstabs and melee.
Coran as an NPC doesn't get points in pick pocket I'm pretty sure. Stealth and Open Locks according to my memory and Dudleyville.
If it is the case that NPC fights can be minimised/avoided via high charisma on charname then having a high charisma charname can just become part of the "best party" setup.
With this in mind I really can't see not taking Yeslick AND Kagain as they are both very powerful NPCs. Yeslick is definitely the best cleric with 2 pips in mace for Stupifier (or just sticking with warhammer) and all the cleric buffs while still filling a healer role.
Either way I think the first 4 slots for best party is: Charname (berserker 7/Druid 9) Yeslick Coran Baeloth
The last 2 spots are fairly flexible as all the bases are covered already but the above 3 NPCs are the best. Yeslick and Coran are both so good because they fill multiple roles so well rather than just 1.
To me the best party would be made up from NPCs that are available much earlier than Yeslick, Coran & Baeloth just becuase the "best party" (IMO) would be one you could use for almost the entire game - as opposed to one that required getting (rushing?) to chap 4 and/or level 5 to complete.
I would probably prefer the ones you could gather prior to your first major quest - Nashkel mines.
This leaves the canon group of course (hey maybe thats why they are canon!) and several other options.
For a more nuetral/evil oriented group I'd probably go with the group I am currently playing in the no reload challenge.
PC- elf or Half-orc F/T Dorn Kagain Viconia Edwin extra slot - Either Branwen if the group plans to stay more nuetral than evil or Xzar dualed to cleric or either of those later swapped for Baeloth if more evil.
For a nuetral good group I might like:
PC- cleric multi or dual Ajantis Kivan Branwen Imoen Xan
Or maybe
PC -Mage type - (except I don't really like playing mage PCs) Jahs Khalid Kivan Branwen Imoen
He had barely any stealth and pickpocket was the highest skill along with locks. I rarely have him in my party though, so maybe I just got him so late that he messed things up. I much prefer Shar-Teel as thief. While she isn't "the best archer", she does very well with backstabs and melee.
Coran as an NPC doesn't get points in pick pocket I'm pretty sure. Stealth and Open Locks according to my memory and Dudleyville.
Hm, if I ever take him along again, I'll look. I just remember I was a bit annoyed that his pickpocket was high, yet not "useful" high and I knew I wouldn't invest in it anyway. So I just didn't bother with his thief side anymore and used him as pure archer.
1. Charname (enchanter) instant kills spells like sleep and casting summuning and horror 2. Dynaheir as firepower and casting horror 3. Coran as archer 4. Branwen (changing sometimes between Viconia and Yeslick now and then) as healer and buffs 5. Safana as archer and thiefing 6. Shar-Teel as tank
If it is the case that NPC fights can be minimised/avoided via high charisma on charname then having a high charisma charname can just become part of the "best party" setup.
With this in mind I really can't see not taking Yeslick AND Kagain as they are both very powerful NPCs. Yeslick is definitely the best cleric with 2 pips in mace for Stupifier (or just sticking with warhammer) and all the cleric buffs while still filling a healer role.
Either way I think the first 4 slots for best party is: Charname (berserker 7/Druid 9) Yeslick Coran Baeloth
The last 2 spots are fairly flexible as all the bases are covered already but the above 3 NPCs are the best. Yeslick and Coran are both so good because they fill multiple roles so well rather than just 1.
To me the best party would be made up from NPCs that are available much earlier than Yeslick, Coran & Baeloth just becuase the "best party" (IMO) would be one you could use for almost the entire game - as opposed to one that required getting (rushing?) to chap 4 and/or level 5 to complete.
I would probably prefer the ones you could gather prior to your first major quest - Nashkel mines.
This leaves the canon group of course (hey maybe thats why they are canon!) and several other options.
For a more nuetral/evil oriented group I'd probably go with the group I am currently playing in the no reload challenge.
PC- elf or Half-orc F/T Dorn Kagain Viconia Edwin extra slot - Either Branwen if the group plans to stay more nuetral than evil or Xzar dualed to cleric or either of those later swapped for Baeloth if more evil.
For a nuetral good group I might like:
PC- cleric multi or dual Ajantis Kivan Branwen Imoen Xan
Or maybe
PC -Mage type - (except I don't really like playing mage PCs) Jahs Khalid Kivan Branwen Imoen
I figure the idea of the best party is about what team you want when you go to take on the biggest challenges in the game. If you want to build a party with the NPCs that I mentioned its reasonable to avoid any big challenges depending on some other factors.
The team that you want when you go to Durlags Tower, Werewolf Island and the entire city of Baldurs Gate includes, if talking about "best" anyway, the 3 NPCs that I mentioned above (IMO).
In particular, I don't see it as reasonable to exclude an NPC from being included in this discussion due to where they are as fundamentally we are just theory crafting here. Each NPC has advantages and disadvantages but if the question is which 5 do you want with your PC then the answer can be given without mention of their location.
Practically speaking there's no reason not to recruit filler NPCs until able to access the others and then replace as appropriate with the superior specimens that are available later into the game.
When I collected Coran at 5/5 in my current run, his thief skills were:-
Open Locks: 100 Find Traps: 24 Pick Pockets: 40 Move Silently: 95 Hide In Shadows: 33 Detect Illusion: 0 Set Traps: 19
Total 311 skill points ...
The default starting allocation for a DEX 18 human thief is 100. Coran should get an extra 15 for being an elf, plus an extra 60 for having DEX 20, then has 40 to distribute at level 1 and 4 x 25 for levels 2-5, making 315. So he seems to have been short-changed by 4 points for some reason.
So yes, no problem getting to 100 in Open Locks by level 5. Note, however, that the only other skill in which he seems to have invested much is Move Silently (which is a correct choice for a stealth-user, since there's no point putting anything into Hide In Shadows until you've got 100 in Move Silently).
Obviously if you were building him yourself as your sole thief, you'd probably invest much more in Find Traps.
Comments
100% agree. As far as I know, you can't get Baeloth, Coran and Yeslick until around level 5-6 though. Might want to use Rasaad (if you want belt), Dorn and/or Brawen until you can get them.
Dorn is pure damage - crits for around 50 at level 1. First time I used him, he was killed in 1 shot by a kobold. Ridiculous
You can get Coran and Yeslisk before reaching level 5/6 if you do the story line stuff without adventuring out too much. It makes the game a bit more challenging in my opinion. I pick up Branwen and Dorn before though. You can have Yeslick and Dorn if you have Dorn first.
I NEVER add Rasaad until AFTER i finish the cloakwood (except on the 1st BGEE run when I didnt know how awful he was).
I try and finish Dorns, Rasaad and Neras quest as soon as I can because I really dont like them that much. Dorn is the best in my opinion. The others talk entirely too much about stupid things. Dorn seems like he will have some upside in BG2EE seeing his interest in your "power".
For a caster your two best options are either Edwin or Baeloth. Edwin has more spells than any other wizard in the game due to his unremoveable amulet and since he is a wizard he can know any spell since he learns them from scrolls. Baeloth has a lot more spells per day than Edwin (and more spells known than any Sorcerer should making him better than even a Charname sorcerer imo) but he comes later on in the game.
Dorn is amazing right out of the gate, his 19 strength and magic sword (that's basically +2 since he's hard pressed not to kill at least 1 enemy in a given day) make him a powerhouse for melee damage. His dex is also not too shabby at 16 meaning that you can give him some pips in Longbow to use composite longbows effectively. With the inclusion of Dorn there is no reason to take Minsc if you're looking for the most effective team. Dorn has the same main weapon proficiency but with higher strength and dexterity.
1) it is the leader's CHA (and the whole party's rep, but no-one else's CHA) which determines prices in shops; and
2) reactions in many dialogues are influenced by the CHA of whoever is speaking for the party, which is most often (although not always!) the party leader in random encounters.
I'm certain about both of those factors. I'm less certain about it being the Charname's CHA rather than the leader's CHA which influences infighting probabilities, but it certainly seems that way in my experience. Yes, @Lemernis, you may be right that this works via the morale calculation, but in that case I reckon the morale calculation depends to a large extent on Charname's CHA, although I don't know the exact mechanics of this.
Hello there, Rasaad, I'm a priest of Talos, could you just stop babbling about your faith? I'm not telling you about mine all day either. Just one such case where it must be annoying for charname, and you can change Talos to Helm or Lathander, it comes out as the same. If this was a real conversation, and charname was not completely bewildered by Rasaad's attempts to shove his faith down their throat, a cleric would at least mention the own faith every now and then, if only to find things that are similar or different.
Oh and one wonderful case... Neera summons a damn demon in the battle in Adoy's cave, and a second later, she tells me "Casting spells is not as easy as I make it look... I'm tired". And that isn't stupid? It's probably the most stupid thing anyone could say in that situation.
I would very much prefer it if all BG1 NPCs had the same amount of dialogue - just not about the same topics.
1. Charname
2. Baeloth (Most flexible Spell Caster)
3. Edwin (Best Mage)
4. Viconia (Best Cleric by far)
3. Shar-Teel (Dualed To Thief)
5. Kagain (Tank)
I would maybe entertain subbing Xzar dualed to Cleric for Baeloth. Depending on what what my Charname is.
And yeah, that specific wild surge is rare. So is every other; and not all of them result in good things. She doesn't look like it's easy to cast spells at ANY point. It's the main problem she has - that it isn't easy. And in her dialogues, she points that out, too. (Besides, her voice in general is a strong contender for kicking Imoen off the annoyance throne, but that is very much a matter of taste.)
I didn't pick Coran because usually I have to Shadowkeeper his thief skills. Also he's great, but you could have Shar-Teel dualed successfully by the time you get to him and be a back-stabbing machine with higher strength.
As for Xzar Vs Vicky, I like getting Vicky extremely early. (I just go for her immediately), so she progresses fast and with the party as it grows. Also she's got great AC and Magic Resistance. Xzar can't really wear armor and has to be dualed with a Tome of Wisdom, so...he's a trade-off...BUT he's the most flexible spell caster in the game after you invest the time, resources and energy into him to make him so. he's worth it if you're Charname has no healing abilities, or if you're playing a very hard tactical version of the game. At that point I'd take him over Baeloth in order to keep Edwin and Vicky too though for the most flexibility.
Illusionist/Thief Charname (Spells; ranged; backstab)
Yeslick (Tank/Healer)
Rasaad (Damage)
Coran (Ranged; backstab)
We are absolutely mauling.
With this in mind I really can't see not taking Yeslick AND Kagain as they are both very powerful NPCs. Yeslick is definitely the best cleric with 2 pips in mace for Stupifier (or just sticking with warhammer) and all the cleric buffs while still filling a healer role.
Either way I think the first 4 slots for best party is:
Charname (berserker 7/Druid 9)
Yeslick
Coran
Baeloth
The last 2 spots are fairly flexible as all the bases are covered already but the above 3 NPCs are the best. Yeslick and Coran are both so good because they fill multiple roles so well rather than just 1.
If you don't have a bard in the party, dualed Xzar can wear Elven Chain. Assuming you also have Baeloth and Edwin who use the arch magi robes, you have 3 powerful casters with the same AC, except Xzar misses out on magic resistance. He can make up for that with cleric self buffs tho and do decent damage in melee.
Beyond that he makes a good backstabber with 2 pips in longsword, a spare pip for single weapon fighting and no reason to have a shield/offhand weapon equipped. Lowish strength isn't a big deal as strength damage isn't multiplied and thac0 should be good enough to hit reliably from stealth. Otherwise there is potions (maybe he could have an item ...).
So, best archer, fine thief, good backstabber. What's not to love?
I would probably prefer the ones you could gather prior to your first major quest - Nashkel mines.
This leaves the canon group of course (hey maybe thats why they are canon!) and several other options.
For a more nuetral/evil oriented group I'd probably go with the group I am currently playing in the no reload challenge.
PC- elf or Half-orc F/T
Dorn
Kagain
Viconia
Edwin
extra slot - Either Branwen if the group plans to stay more nuetral than evil or Xzar dualed to cleric or either of those later swapped for Baeloth if more evil.
For a nuetral good group I might like:
PC- cleric multi or dual
Ajantis
Kivan
Branwen
Imoen
Xan
Or maybe
PC -Mage type - (except I don't really like playing mage PCs)
Jahs
Khalid
Kivan
Branwen
Imoen
1. Charname (enchanter) instant kills spells like sleep and casting summuning and horror
2. Dynaheir as firepower and casting horror
3. Coran as archer
4. Branwen (changing sometimes between Viconia and Yeslick now and then) as healer and buffs
5. Safana as archer and thiefing
6. Shar-Teel as tank
The team that you want when you go to Durlags Tower, Werewolf Island and the entire city of Baldurs Gate includes, if talking about "best" anyway, the 3 NPCs that I mentioned above (IMO).
In particular, I don't see it as reasonable to exclude an NPC from being included in this discussion due to where they are as fundamentally we are just theory crafting here. Each NPC has advantages and disadvantages but if the question is which 5 do you want with your PC then the answer can be given without mention of their location.
Practically speaking there's no reason not to recruit filler NPCs until able to access the others and then replace as appropriate with the superior specimens that are available later into the game.
Open Locks: 100
Find Traps: 24
Pick Pockets: 40
Move Silently: 95
Hide In Shadows: 33
Detect Illusion: 0
Set Traps: 19
Total 311 skill points ...
The default starting allocation for a DEX 18 human thief is 100. Coran should get an extra 15 for being an elf, plus an extra 60 for having DEX 20, then has 40 to distribute at level 1 and 4 x 25 for levels 2-5, making 315. So he seems to have been short-changed by 4 points for some reason.
So yes, no problem getting to 100 in Open Locks by level 5. Note, however, that the only other skill in which he seems to have invested much is Move Silently (which is a correct choice for a stealth-user, since there's no point putting anything into Hide In Shadows until you've got 100 in Move Silently).
Obviously if you were building him yourself as your sole thief, you'd probably invest much more in Find Traps.