How exactly do the mechanics of HIde In Shadows and Move Silently work...and how are they different?

Debaser

Hey all.

I get that it's always an average between the two stats.

But what does Hide in Shadows do that's different than Move Silently?

Any rogue experts feel like explaining?

DJKajuru

You roll hide in shadows first, and you've gotta do it away from sunlight.

Once you're hidden, you do 'move silently' rolls to remain invisible.

Therefore , backstabbers need a high hide in shadows % , while scouts need both.

ryuken87

DJKajuru said:

You roll hide in shadows first, and you've gotta do it away from sunlight.

Once you're hidden, you do 'move silently' rolls to remain invisible.

Therefore , backstabbers need a high hide in shadows % , while scouts need both.

No you don't.

Your chance to hide is based on the average of the two stats, your chance to stay hidden is based on Move Silenty. Neither do you have to do it away from sunlight, you simply suffer penalties to your success for being in sunlight.

EDIT: Actually, following some testing, I'm not convinced there is any difference at all between MS and HitS for the purposes of hiding or staying hidden.

SpaceInvader

It works like this: once you click on the toggle button, the game takes the average % of your Hide in Shadows and Move Silently score.

Example: HIS 70, MS 30: 50% chance
But also: HIS 0, MS: 100: 50% chance

After you hide successfully, the MS skill determines how long you stay hidden for, thus still giving you the opportunity to either retreat or backstab before you're fully seen.

(As you can see, MS is a lot more useful than HIS)

Plus, you have to consider that night/daylight and shadow spots influence your % of success.

EDIT: ninja'ed by ryuken87

Debaser

SpaceInvader said:

It works like this: once you click on the toggle button, the game takes the average % of your Hide in Shadows and Move Silently score.

Example: HIS 70, MS 30: 50% chance
But also: HIS 0, MS: 100: 50% chance

After you hide successfully, the MS skill determines how long you stay hidden for, thus still giving you the opportunity to either retreat or backstab before you're fully seen.

(As you can see, MS is a lot more useful than HIS)

Plus, you have to consider that night/daylight and shadow spots influence your % of success.

EDIT: ninja'ed by ryuken87

@SpaceInvader @ryuken87 @DJKajuru

So why bother with hide in shadows at all and just put 200 points into Move Silently?

Lord_Tansheron

You probably don't even need 200 points, given racial and DEX bonuses and bonuses from items. But yes, there is currently little reason to put any points into Hide in Shadows at all.

TJ_Hooker

Debaser said:

SpaceInvader said:

It works like this: once you click on the toggle button, the game takes the average % of your Hide in Shadows and Move Silently score.

Example: HIS 70, MS 30: 50% chance
But also: HIS 0, MS: 100: 50% chance

After you hide successfully, the MS skill determines how long you stay hidden for, thus still giving you the opportunity to either retreat or backstab before you're fully seen.

(As you can see, MS is a lot more useful than HIS)

Plus, you have to consider that night/daylight and shadow spots influence your % of success.

EDIT: ninja'ed by ryuken87

@SpaceInvader @ryuken87 @DJKajuru

So why bother with hide in shadows at all and just put 200 points into Move Silently?

Exactly. From a powergaming perspective, you're better off putting all your points in MS, unless you're trying to get your stealth super high to negate penalties from hiding in bright areas, in which case you may have to put some in HIS because you've already maxed out MS.

bigdogchris

Because some armor has bonuses to hide or move, you may base your skill progression points on that.

[Deleted User]

I'm with @ryuken87 on this one; I did some testing of my own and didn't see a significant difference between high HS/low MS and low HS/high MS as far as remaining hidden. Granted, since HiS demonstrably does nothing special, you might as well boost up MS first just in case it might possibly have some kind of extra utility, but I doubt you'd be better off than someone just splitting the points evenly.

@Debaser As far as why you'd put points into HiS at all, it used to be that thief skills wrapped around back to zero when you boosted them over 255, which would mean that boosting MS exclusively would have negative effects if taken too far. I've heard that this has been fixed in BGEE, but it might make sense to try to stay under that point anyway in case they put a cap in place. If you want to be able to reliably hide in broad daylight, you'll need more than 200 points in HiS/MS anyway.

Debaser

Kaigen said:

I'm with @ryuken87 on this one; I did some testing of my own and didn't see a significant difference between high HS/low MS and low HS/high MS as far as remaining hidden. Granted, since HiS demonstrably does nothing special, you might as well boost up MS first just in case it might possibly have some kind of extra utility, but I doubt you'd be better off than someone just splitting the points evenly.

@Debaser As far as why you'd put points into HiS at all, it used to be that thief skills wrapped around back to zero when you boosted them over 255, which would mean that boosting MS exclusively would have negative effects if taken too far. I've heard that this has been fixed in BGEE, but it might make sense to try to stay under that point anyway in case they put a cap in place. If you want to be able to reliably hide in broad daylight, you'll need more than 200 points in HiS/MS anyway.

@Kaigen

Where did you hear this was fixed was it after a specific patch?

@bigdogchris @SpaceInvader @ryuken87 @DJKajuru @Lord_Tansheron @TJ_Hooker

Can anyone confirm if the wrap-around was dealt with in a patch or during EE development?

TJ_Hooker

@Debaser http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/3625/fixed-forum-compiled-list-pt-2

Item #42, under ToBEx

Note that this merely prevents the value from wrapping around. You still aren't able to go over 255 (at least, that's my understanding).

SpaceInvader

I know for sure they fixed the stats wraps, as regards thief skills I'm not sure.
Many ToBEx are not implemented.

TJ_Hooker

SpaceInvader said:

I know for sure they fixed the stats wraps, as regards thief skills I'm not sure.
Many ToBEx are not implemented.

I know, but I think that thread is specifically a list of bugfixes included in BG:EE.

[Deleted User]

TJ_Hooker said:

@Debaser http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/3625/fixed-forum-compiled-list-pt-2

Item #42, under ToBEx

Note that this merely prevents the value from wrapping around. You still aren't able to go over 255 (at least, that's my understanding).

It does say "capped," which would suggest that 255 is the max. If that's the case, you would probably want to stop boosting MS around 200 so that points aren't wasted when stealth items boost it up.

Freche

Debaser said:

SpaceInvader said:

It works like this: once you click on the toggle button, the game takes the average % of your Hide in Shadows and Move Silently score.

Example: HIS 70, MS 30: 50% chance
But also: HIS 0, MS: 100: 50% chance

After you hide successfully, the MS skill determines how long you stay hidden for, thus still giving you the opportunity to either retreat or backstab before you're fully seen.

(As you can see, MS is a lot more useful than HIS)

Plus, you have to consider that night/daylight and shadow spots influence your % of success.

EDIT: ninja'ed by ryuken87

@SpaceInvader @ryuken87 @DJKajuru

So why bother with hide in shadows at all and just put 200 points into Move Silently?

Because of penalties from environment, if standing in sunlight your chance to hide is halved.
So you would need a total of 400 to always hide in sunlight.

smeagolheart

@Debaser

You need to see this:
http://social.bioware.com/forum/Baldur039s-Gate-1-and-2/Baldur039s-Gate-General-Discussion-No-Spoilers-Allowed/Thesis-Hide-in-Shadows-12667733-1.html

Hide in Shadows/Move Silently Thesis

Fenghoang

Like the others said, stealth takes the average of the two skills.

I did some testing myself (dumping 200 pts in either HiS or MS only) and didn't come to any noticable difference in maintaining stealth. Their fade in times were the same as well. The tests weren't done with the char in perpetual motion nor with any hostiles around though, so unless one of the skills affects stealth in motion or with the presence of enemies, I don't see the benefits of dumping in either stat.

Just note that you halve your overall stealth average in daylight and multiply by 0.7 for lighted indoor areas. Shadows in either and night-time outdoors have full stealth efficacy.

EDIT: I just did a test with a pack of 6 gnolls, ran circles around them for 10 minutes, and both chars (one with pts dumped entirely in HiS and the other in MS) stayed stealthed the whole time. I don't think there's a difference between the two skills.

[Deleted User]

Yeah, the idea that Move Silently does something different than Hide in Shadows seems to come from the assumption that they wouldn't make a redundant skill just for the purposes of forcing the thief to invest extra skill points to do one task. I challenge that assumption on the grounds that forcing the thief to use multiple skills in tandem to accomplish one simple task is a time-honored tradition in D&D.