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Eldritch Knight: Sorcerer Kit v1

TomeTome Member Posts: 466
edited February 2013 in General Modding
Hi guys, this is my first publicly released mod (possibly also the first Sorcerer kit mod for BG:EE). It requires the teambg HLA mod for it to work otherwise it's just an ordinary Sorcerer with a couple of drawbacks (one negligible, the other rather nasty in BG1)

The Eldritch Knight

Trained from an early age to wield with equal proficiency both their innate sorcerous skills and a variety of weaponry, the Eldritch Knight is a powerful force on the battlefield. However, despite their great versatility, the Eldritch Knight is typically somewhat less hardy than a typical warrior. While experience can overcome these difficulties, this drawback often leads beginners in the trade to meet an untimely demise. Furthermore, the heady combination of physical strength and magical might possessed by an Eldritch Knight often causes them to be a little foolhardy.

Advantages:

-Can become proficient in any weapon and specialised in any fighting style.
-Can attain standard Mastery (not High Mastery or Grandmastery) in quarterstaves, longswords, two-handed swords and spears.
-Damage increases every two levels until level 25, at which point it increases after every fifth level.
-AC decreases every two levels until level 25, at which point it decreases after every fifth level.
-Gains 1 additional Constitution point at level 7, another at level 14.
-Can use any item.

Disadvantages:

-Takes a -2 penalty to Constitution.
-Takes a -1 penalty to Wisdom.

It's basically the sorcerous equivalent to the Swashbuckler. Please note that it should still be impossible to cast in heavy armor, so elven chainmail or Robe of the Archmagi will be as good as it gets there. Although UAI (only easy way to give a Sorcerer access to fighter gear) will have some unintended consequences in BG2 (Carsomyr), I don't feel it's gamebreaking, especially as it still relies on the Sorcerer's pathetic hitdice. In fact, my playtesting suggests that Fighter/Mages are still quite a bit better-although I confess that I'm a lot better playing as a standard mage than I am as a Sorcerer.

I really hope you guys enjoy this-without further ado, here's the mod!

Beta Version has a host of bonus abilities such as Dispel Magic, Kai and many overpowered immunities (I was just testing if all the spcl codes worked). Only use if you find the game incredibly hard normally or you like the idea of the Bhaalspawn utterly outclassing everything else in the universe..

EldritchKnight.zip is the main file.

Post edited by Tome on
XavioriaNifftIllustairdeuceofheartsSCARY_WIZARDelminster
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Comments

  • zupskyzupsky Member Posts: 126
    It doesn't work for me. When I installed I had Sorcerer, Dragon Disciple and second DD with Eldritch Knight in description. So I picked the second one but he is just a regular not kitted Sorcerer : <

  • TomeTome Member Posts: 466
    A second Dragon Disciple? That's bizarre. Will check out.

  • NifftNifft Member Posts: 1,065
    Interesting!

    Given the difference in THAC0 between a Sorcerer base and a Thief base, I think this class would need more of an attack bonus than just once per 5 levels to be viable.

  • TomeTome Member Posts: 466
    Was expecting people to call this overpowered, not underpowered. Oops. D: Will add a few more attack bonuses here and there.

  • zupskyzupsky Member Posts: 126
    I'm adding pics. After picking DD with EK in description, all I got was regular sorcerer (checked, I leveled her up and she didn't receive dragon breathe).

  • TomeTome Member Posts: 466
    edited February 2013
    @zupksy Just looked through everything. I'm getting a similar bug but I'm not sure why-yet. Does this work any better for you? This one works perfectly on my end.

    Warning: This is my incredibly overpowered beta.

  • NifftNifft Member Posts: 1,065
    @Tome - well, with Use Any Item it probably *is* overpowered, but that's a technical issue which you may be able to solve in time... before Carsomyr becomes available I hope!

    The one overpowered thing I can think of immediately is Tenser's Transformation. Make sure the bonuses you give do NOT stack with that spell, and it's on the way to being solid.

  • BerconBercon Member Posts: 486
    Add -2 spells cast per day and its just fine.

  • TomeTome Member Posts: 466
    edited February 2013
    My current plan of action is simply to remove 1 spell cast per day once I work out how. I understand that some people may think that's overpowered, but to be honest I think people are overestimating the class' power. As it is, it's no better (in fact, it's likely weaker) than F/M multi-classed or dual classed (except the whole UAI thing).

    My current plan of action:


    High Priority:

    ~Fix the semi-balanced version of the class.

    ETA: Should be done before Saturday at the latest.

    ~Rebalance the class.

    ETA: Ongoing process naturally.


    Low Priority

    ~find a way to remove Tenser's Transformation from the spell list without removing it from the Sorcerer spell list entirely.

    ETA: No clue, but I suspect it's going to be very difficult.

    ~Find a way to avoid UAI.

    ETA: I don't think this is going to happen soon unfortunately. May simply introduce some special Eldritch Blades/Spears that use quarterstaff specialization and allow the EK to reach Grandmastery in quarterstaff to compensate, but that seems even less elegant than UAI.


    Feedback both positive and negative welcomed! :D

  • TomeTome Member Posts: 466
    Released a new, hopefully fully functional version with slight balance tweaks. Someone please tell me if it works! :D

  • NifftNifft Member Posts: 1,065
    Can you even reach the level necessary to pick Tenser's Transformation in BGEE?

    I think it's just a theoretical problem, at least until BG2EE gets released, and maybe by then we'll have custom per-kit spell lists.

  • TomeTome Member Posts: 466
    No, fortunately TT is a problem for BG2EE.

  • XavioriaXavioria Member Posts: 874
    edited February 2013
    Okay so I just downloaded the balanced version (not the beta one) and tried it out. I'm very interested in such a class because it feels like a fighter/mage but different in such and such ways. Blah blah, here's my thoughts:

    I'm a little confused at having 7 level 1 spells by level 4 whereas a regular sorcerer only gets 6. I don't know if that's a bug or maybe it's fashioned after a certain stat now (i have no idea) but it's a bit odd to me, or maybe that was your intention, I have no idea, but I'm mentioning it anyways.

    I think Use Any Item should be saved as a HLA instead of initial use ability for the class... but that's just my opinion.

    Loving this idea! And will be playing this class from now on!

    EDIT: Did a little screwing around with the console and added a bunch of experience to see how the class progresses. I'm a little worried about weapon advancement. I get three pips by level 12 (1 Million Experience). I think in terms of weapons this character wouldn't stand much of a chance until about end game ToB. I DO agree with the amount of progression (i started with one, so I only received 2 pips through level ups.) but I think this particular class would benefit with being able to start out on character creation with a few more pips in weaponry.

    NineOfSpades
  • TomeTome Member Posts: 466
    @Xaviora

    Thanks for the indepth critique! :)

    1: The extra spell thing is odd, as I've done nothing that should add spells to the game. Can't replicate it myself, so unfortunately I'm going to have to wait for a second opinion before looking into the matter in earnest.

    2: The problem with Use Any Item is that without it, the kit can only use Sorcerer weapons and proficiencies. There is no way around it otherwise it would be gone. I realize that it's a little awkward, but without the UAI ability the class would just feel like a Sorcerer with some nasty drawbacks and slightly better AC. In my personal playthrough, I'm just RPing that my character can only use the same items as a F/M.

    3: Weapon Proficiencies is one of my big regrets-they are tied to the individual class rather than the kit, so my installer can't do anything without giving Sorcerer and Dragon Disciple the proficiency bonuses as well. I felt that some people would not appreciate that so I chose to keep things vanilla. If you are willing to alter the base Sorcerer to get bonus proficiency points upon start up, here is what you must do:

    -Open DLTCEP
    -Click 'edit' then '2da'
    -Click 'load 2da'
    -In the search bar type 'PROFS' without the ''
    -Scroll down to Sorcerer and edit the number that reads 1 to 3.

    Hope this helps! :D

    Xavioria
  • LugeLuge Member Posts: 90
    Those disadvantages are worthless.

    Penalties to stats just mean your rolls are reduced during character creation. Your -2 CON means you can only every have 16 CON. So what? Only fighters benefit from high CON. -1 WIS? Meaningless to a sorcerer.

    Try again, sorry.

    L.

    Itomon
  • mars0124mars0124 Member Posts: 180
    edited February 2013
    While I wouldn't word it quite as harshly as Luge I would agree with his point. The point of a disadvantage is one that will balance the character to not be OP.

    Take a look at this wild mage for example. It has a similar flavor to yours in the higher HP/melee abilities aspect. But look at all of the disadvantages? Ouch. http://mods.jo-ge.net/bg/shaper.htm

    Likewise @CamDawg sheds some insight on balancing here: http://forums.pocketplane.net/index.php?topic=630.0

    Maybe since this is essentially a fighter/mage kit the disadvantages should include an XP hit? As is this kit will progress at double the rate of a regular F/M.

    I didn't mention. @Tome, while I do think this is sounding OP for now, it does sound like you have a good idea. Keep it up!

    Post edited by mars0124 on
    AntonErgItomon
  • valamyrvalamyr Member Posts: 115
    edited February 2013
    I for one think this is promising. Its accepted that kits are going to be better than base classes, and this could well be a refreshing take on F/M. The very fact that sorcerers cant multiclass is a fairly large disadvantage.

    Xavioria
  • XavioriaXavioria Member Posts: 874
    @mars0124 I disagree with you somewhat, the Cavalier, Wizard Slayer, and Stalker are prime examples of that. I personally think that disadvantages are to force a niche too , rather than just balance a class. If a Cavalier were to truly be balanced, then not using missle weapons wouldn't be it's only disadvantage. Same goes for Stalker, who's only disadvantage was wearing studded leather. Wizard Slayer lies on the other end of the spectrum whereas it's TOO much disadvantage, so it's very rarely used.

    I DO think, however, that the disadvantages here ARE silly, and I think a niche force disadvantage would be better. If your kit isn't meant to do something, put the disadvantage in there.

    Putting SO many disadvantages in there, or HUGE disadvantages are stupid, and limit the character for no reason. That's my take on it. Why not make it so the minimum Intelligence is 17? I bet that would limit the character, because everyone knows that sorcerers don't need intelligence. OR you could stay true to the fact that in 3e Sorcerers needed charisma, so make it a high minimum in THAT stat. OR BOTH! I think if you required a high minimum in both of those stats, even rolling decent totals (let's use 86 for instance) and you needed at least 17 in Charisma AND Intelligence, GUESS WHAT? YOu don't have much to put into the other stats.

    I think that would be a great balancing factor (just an example PLEASE don't actually think i meant to use THAT specific idea) and would add more to the story of what an Eldritch thingie is supposed to be.

  • NifftNifft Member Posts: 1,065
    Xavioria said:

    Why not make it so the minimum Intelligence is 17? I bet that would limit the character, because everyone knows that sorcerers don't need intelligence. OR you could stay true to the fact that in 3e Sorcerers needed charisma, so make it a high minimum in THAT stat. OR BOTH! I think if you required a high minimum in both of those stats, even rolling decent totals (let's use 86 for instance) and you needed at least 17 in Charisma AND Intelligence, GUESS WHAT? YOu don't have much to put into the other stats.

    That's actually the opposite of how stat rolling works.

    Having a high minimum is an advantage.

    Try rolling up a Ranger and look at the average rolls you get there, then try it with a Fighter or Thief. You get a lot more high rolls as a Ranger.

    Illustair
  • LugeLuge Member Posts: 90
    Nifft said:

    Having a high minimum is an advantage.

    Try rolling up a Ranger and look at the average rolls you get there, then try it with a Fighter or Thief. You get a lot more high rolls as a Ranger.

    Nifft is correct. Because you select your class BEFORE rolling stats, the game "cheats". It automatically makes sure you always meet your minimum stat requirements by re-rolling those ones that aren't high enough. Stats are not how you balance a class.

    L.

  • IllustairIllustair Member Posts: 863
    This kit is a bit overpowered I think. The nifty bonuses are compensated with constitution loss that gets removed at level 14 and a meager wisdom loss. But meh, I like my PC overpowered. In other words, I like this as it is.:D I sometimes play Eldritch Knight in NWN2; now that I can play it in BG2, two thumbs up!

  • leeho730leeho730 Member Posts: 285
    I was thinking Eldritch knight kit would have stats more or less like...

    Advantages:

    THAC0 progression as cleric of the same level

    Disadvantages:

    5% chance of spell casting failure

    Xavioria
  • TomeTome Member Posts: 466
    I'm starting to feel like I'm damned if I do, damned if I don't with regards to rebalancing the kit! D:

    Just a few notes:

    My current plan for advantages is:

    Nothing at the moment

    My current plan for disadvantages is this:

    1: Remove Wisdom nerf. Doesn't fit Eldritch Knight, feels frankly shoehorned in.

    2: Add a 20% experience penalty.

    3. Reduce spells per day by 1 like Dragon Disciple.

    To be honest, I wouldn't feel comfortable nerfing it any more. Not because I like overpowered classes (although to be honest I still think F/M is more powerful than the EK), but because I'm worried that giving the class too many weaknesses would serve to drive people away from the mod rather than reassure them that the mod is balanced.

    However, I must admit that my mod-fu is insufficient to implement either an experience penalty or a spell reduction, so if any superior modders were willing to offer advice regarding this matter I'd be grateful.

  • NifftNifft Member Posts: 1,065
    Tome said:

    I'm starting to feel like I'm damned if I do, damned if I don't with regards to rebalancing the kit!

    That's always true for any change.
    Tome said:

    My current plan for disadvantages is this:
    1: Remove Wisdom nerf. Doesn't fit Eldritch Knight, feels frankly shoehorned in.
    2: Add a 20% experience penalty.
    3. Reduce spells per day by 1 like Dragon Disciple.

    The spells/day nerf is relevant and is a good idea.

    I personally don't like the XP nerf -- it's not meaningful in a game where you WILL hit the XP cap if you expend any effort at all, in other words, in a game where the available XP is so much higher than the XP cap.

    IMHO the AC and damage bonuses are a bit too high at the end game, but looking ONLY at the BGEE part of the game, they aren't too ridiculous, especially if you don't ever grant an attack bonus.

    IMHO an attack bonus might be more interesting than a damage bonus, though, because it makes weapon spells better (Melf's Meteors, Phantom Blade, etc.).

  • TomeTome Member Posts: 466
    @Nifft I was under the impression that the penalty reduced the cap for that class by 20% ?

    An attack bonus would be interesting, but unfortunately damage and hit are tied together in the spcl files so the attack bonus would be invalidated by awful accuracy.

    I don't really think the damage/AC bonuses are too high at the endgame (as said in the description, they slow down greatly after level 25)

  • NifftNifft Member Posts: 1,065
    @Tome - You might be correct, but that would be unintuitive to me. In PnP, a 20% xp penalty means you earn 20% less XP than a normal character would earn per encounter, so you advance more slowly.

    By "endgame" I mean SoA / ToB -- for BGEE they're perfectly fine.

    In SoA at level 20, you'd be throwing 5 Melf's Meteor's / round, each one dealing 1d4+3 base +3 fire +10 class + Str bonus (probably from a girdle), which adds up fast.

    In ToB at level 35, you'd be throwing 9 Energy Blades per round, which again adds up.

    You're adding more damage to these spells than even a Kensai>Mage could get. I'm not saying that it's broken -- I haven't done the math on that -- but it's something to be aware of if you're trying to figure out if your class is balanced against other options.

    Cheers! -- N

  • TomeTome Member Posts: 466
    @nifft It's possible-as I said before I'm not a major expert of XP adjustment.

    As for Energy Blades, you do raise a fair point there. May cease the hit/damage boost entirely at level 20.

    Thanks for the feedback!

  • mars0124mars0124 Member Posts: 180
    @Tome would it be easier to increase the XP required to level up rather than adding a XP penalty?

    Erg
  • XavioriaXavioria Member Posts: 874
    @mars0124 is that even possible to do?
    I thought the amount of XP is hardcoded....

This discussion has been closed.