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Thought about suggesting changes/feature requests

I write this in response to some feature requests threads I read lately.

Here is my thought about suggesting changes in general. People usually express their personal opinion on how the game could change for better for themselves and ask community for support/discussion of their idea. Some people would usually agree and some disagree. And what now? Should such a discussion of limited number of people lead to an actual change that would have impact on everyone? On what basis? I think there should be one rule (for lack of a better word), where everyone suggesting a change should first ask themselves a question. "How does my suggestion impact those, who wouldn't agree with me?" This is crucial! If a change can be ignored by those who wouldn't agree to it, then everything is fine (for example, druids can now wear Ankegh plate, if someone think they shouldn't they aren't forced to wear it.). But if a change would force itself on everyone, even those who don't agree with it, then it just feels wrong! Doesn't it? BG series are established and popular games and one would expect enhanced edition to be at the very least as enjoyable as the old version. One would be very disappointed if EE was to feature change to worse (from their personal point of view). So if the latter was the case, than the proposer should resort to mods, instead of trying to force their opinion on everyone.

So that's about all I wanted to say. I'd just like to inspire people to be more thoughtful about this sort of things.
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Comments

  • TJ_HookerTJ_Hooker Member Posts: 2,438
    edited March 2013
    Yeah, it seems like half of the feature requests these days are people asking for the game to be tailored in one way or another to suit their specific tastes. It's not even that they're necessarily bad ideas, it's just that many of them would be better suited as mod requests.

    Edit: It also clutters up the feature requests board. From what remember from when I first came to these forums, the feature requests forum mostly contained insightful ideas that I think had the potential to make meaningful improvements to the game, and I actually felt optimistic about the chances of at least some of them being implemented. Now even when I see an excellent idea posted I can't get too excited, because I have little faith it'll ever see the light of day, as every good request seems to get buried under a pile of inane ones.
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  • PeccaPecca Member Posts: 2,215
    Bhaaldog said:

    Pecca said:

    Should such a discussion of limited number of people lead to an actual change that would have impact on everyone?

    That technically already happens at Overhaul HQ.

    I am of the opinion if someone has a reasonable idea put it in because it could spark something that Overhaul may not have considered. In addition @Pecca you cannot assume to know the back ground, qualifications and experience of people who are posting ideas.
    Well I wasn't referring to the devs, but to other members of this community posting feature requests. I trust that devs consider any changes to the game very carefully. But I'm little afraid that some discussions might create misleading impressions.

    Also qualifications and experience of proposers are irrelevant to my point, as my point is only to stress out that changes in favor of proposer's personal preferences (even a well thought idea) might lessen someone else's game experience, and that they should take this into consideration.
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  • PeccaPecca Member Posts: 2,215
    Bhaaldog said:

    Pecca said:

    Also qualifications and experience of proposers are irrelevant to my point, as my point is only to stress out that changes in favor of proposer's personal preferences (even a well thought idea) might lessen someone else's game experience, and that they should take this into consideration.

    With that sort of attitude you could argue why bother living as it may lessen someone else's experience of life? Variety is the spice of life, if someone has an idea I wish to hear it.
    I'm not saying there shouldn't be such discussions, I'm saying that people should also consider negative aspects of their proposals. It's not like why "bother living", but more like "why bother paying plumber for his service if I think it should be for free."
  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    I agree it's not asked too much to consider all sides of a request or idea before posting it, if only to not clutter the forum and make it easier to wade through all the topics.
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  • BerconBercon Member Posts: 485
    Pecca is trying to improve the overall quality of the feature requests, because lets be honest, well over 50% of them are shit. Personally I stopped reading the feature request forum because they are filled with completely unreasonable and bad requests. Instead of wading through pages and pages of bad requests, I'd rather see some well thought ideas that are objectively good. Its not just a matter of opinion whether a new feature is good or bad. There are also plenty of objective qualities about features that can be measured.

    Freedom of speech doesn't have anything to do with this topic really.
  • PeccaPecca Member Posts: 2,215
    Bhaaldog said:

    Pecca said:

    I'm not saying there shouldn't be such discussions, I'm saying that people should also consider negative aspects of their proposals. It's not like why "bother living", but more like "why bother paying plumber for his service if I think it should be for free."

    Because a plumber needs to make a living.

    Your proposition is actually very similar to a feature request (you are requesting forum members to behave in a certain manner because that is the way you think is best and you have not considered how it would impact on others). The arguments you are applying in support of your feature request can equally be applied against your own suggestions can they not?

    There is a notion called freedom of speech, where people have the right to express their opinions and ideas, which also applies to feature requests regardless if you personally consider them to be good or bad.
    If that's what you take from it, so be it. You obviously disagree with my point, or I lack the necesseary linguistic skills to explain it properly (I'm not native english speaker). I'm not requesting this! As I stated it's just a thought, that I'd like people to think about. I'm not sure where you're going with the freedom of speech stuff.
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  • PeccaPecca Member Posts: 2,215
    Bhaaldog said:

    Pecca said:

    Bhaaldog said:

    Pecca said:

    I'm not saying there shouldn't be such discussions, I'm saying that people should also consider negative aspects of their proposals. It's not like why "bother living", but more like "why bother paying plumber for his service if I think it should be for free."

    Because a plumber needs to make a living.

    Your proposition is actually very similar to a feature request (you are requesting forum members to behave in a certain manner because that is the way you think is best and you have not considered how it would impact on others). The arguments you are applying in support of your feature request can equally be applied against your own suggestions can they not?

    There is a notion called freedom of speech, where people have the right to express their opinions and ideas, which also applies to feature requests regardless if you personally consider them to be good or bad.
    If that's what you take from it, so be it. You obviously disagree with my point, or I lack the necesseary linguistic skills to explain it properly (I'm not native english speaker). I'm not requesting this! As I stated it's just a thought, that I'd like people to think about. I'm not sure where you're going with the freedom of speech stuff.
    My point is that people have the freedom to express their opinions (obviously within the limitations imposed by the forum rules).
    I don't think that encouraging people to think more about their proposals is violating their freedom of speech. But I think I understand your point now. You say that even "objectively bad" requests are good addition. I disagree with this, therefore the encouragement to make them "better".
  • O_BruceO_Bruce Member Posts: 2,790
    Maybe mr @Pecca will show us example of "good" and "baad" feature request? Some criteria regarding those request would be nice to hear as well. That would be more fruitful than debating "freedom of speech" over and over again.
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  • PeccaPecca Member Posts: 2,215

    Maybe mr @Pecca will show us example of "good" and "baad" feature request? Some criteria regarding those request would be nice to hear as well. That would be more fruitful than debating "freedom of speech" over and over again.

    ok the "good" and "bad" label is unfortunate and I failed to avoid it. What I had in mind when writing the topic is for example the request to put penalties to thieving skills while wearing leather armors. While it would suit the proposer, it would significantly change the gameplay for everyone. So those who didn't like the change would be forced to change their gameplay (need to put the armor off before open locks, etc...). And all that while having a mod outthere that suits the proposer and leaving others with original gameplay.
  • PeccaPecca Member Posts: 2,215
    Bhaaldog said:

    Pecca said:

    I don't think that encouraging people to think more about their proposals is violating their freedom of speech. But I think I understand your point now. You say that even "objectively bad" requests are good addition. I disagree with this, therefore the encouragement to make them "better".

    No, you are twisting my words. I said "objectively bad" requests serve a purpose.
    Ok, so I didn't understand that correctly.
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  • O_BruceO_Bruce Member Posts: 2,790
    @Pecca
    Ok, so basically every feature request is bad, because implementing those request forces people to play with them being in the game, even if some players doesn't like them. That's a way to nowhere.

    Pherhaps putting feature requests as a free and optional DLCs would be a option.
  • PeccaPecca Member Posts: 2,215
    @ZelgadisGW, I wouldn't say every feature request (as I said Ankegh plate for druids, for example). I said that people should consider what they suggest with regard to others, but not to throw away the entire idea, that wasn't my point.

    For example the expanded difficulty settings, with various individual options would be great solution, but obviously quite difficult to implement.
  • PeccaPecca Member Posts: 2,215
    edited March 2013
    Bhaaldog said:

    Pecca said:

    Maybe mr @Pecca will show us example of "good" and "baad" feature request? Some criteria regarding those request would be nice to hear as well. That would be more fruitful than debating "freedom of speech" over and over again.

    ok the "good" and "bad" label is unfortunate and I failed to avoid it. What I had in mind when writing the topic is for example the request to put penalties to thieving skills while wearing leather armors. While it would suit the proposer, it would significantly change the gameplay for everyone. So those who didn't like the change would be forced to change their gameplay (need to put the armor off before open locks, etc...). And all that while having a mod outthere that suits the proposer and leaving others with original gameplay.
    @bigdogchris happens to be a very knowledgable person concerning D&D PnP and he wanted to see more PnP implemented into the game. In PnP Thief's receive a penalty to their skills depending on the armour they wear.

    Seems like a legitimate request to make, asking for things that appear in PnP?
    Just because it appears in PnP is not enough IMHO. But that's for quite different duscussion. My point was that he didn't seem to consider the impact of his proposal to those who wouldn't agree with it.

    I'm not trying to diminish the activity of feature requests. I'm just pointing out that there are things to consider with those suggestions.
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  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,318
    edited March 2013
    I think it's a fair point to make that when raising discussion about a feature one would like to see implemented that in most cases the best chance of ever seeing it happen is via a mod. There are contractual limitations to what Beamdog can change, and partners have to agree, etc.

    I guess we'll see if the devs can change more things to the core content of the game via DLC, time will tell. But anyway, I can understand why a player would float an idea out in the hope that it might catch the eye of a modder. Or possibly the devs, if more can eventually be done via DLCs than they could do with the core product.

    And discussing nuances of the game, and our preferences, is what we do all the time--it's fun. Most of the requests will never be taken up, but it's still interesting to think about what modifications might might be made to the game.
    Post edited by Lemernis on
  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    I don't think it has anything to do with "freedom of speech" if someone asks to think before speaking. @Pecca didn't say "stop posting feature requests, they are all bad", just "consider how it will effect the gameplay for others". A request you thought through has a better chance to be picked up by devs or modders. It's not like every idea the devs deem "bad" will be made by modders instead; they have an interest in offering quality, too.
    And in general, it is in the best interest of everyone to not drown a forum in chaos by repeating the same (good or bad) thing over and over again. It makes it easier for the people who can review requests (and possibly make them happen) to find things. Consider the search options this forum has... (That said, they aren't so insanely bad that we really need a new "How can I get SPOILER NPC?" topic every two days, but that's a different story.)
  • atcDaveatcDave Member Posts: 2,387
    It is unfortunate that complaints are more likely to come up than praises. And people are less likely to open threads on all the things they think are great about something.
    It does make it tricky to look at a complaint or suggestion and figure out how representative the comment is of players in general. That is a very good reason for not ignoring complaints or suggestions and being sure they are examined in enough detail for advantages, flaws, and the overall community attitude to all be brought out.
    And of course, doing that while remaining respectful and civil can be extra challenging too!
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  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    I imply that people who post something that was already posted by someone else and word it slightly differently did not take the time to think about it, and/or think their wording somehow makes the idea more likely to be accepted. It has nothing to do with agreeing or disagreeing with me.

    And to stick with the above example, I also imply that people who demand leather armor should disable thief skills did not think as far as "how will this fly with other players (for example, players who play computer games, not PnP)". I personally have not much of an opinion about thief skills and leather armor, beyond "I guess it works the way it is now", but I can see how both sides have a point. Which makes this a clear candidate for a mod that many people will like, but not really something that should be forced on everyone.
  • BigfishBigfish Member Posts: 367
    Freedom of Speach! Hitler and the Nazis! Godwin's Law! One of us!
  • DazzuDazzu Member Posts: 950
    I never understood PnP askings. Imagine this: You're on a mighty quest, and have been at it for a good many weeks of PnP. Your players have a mighty dual classed 13/21 Fighter/Mage, a 9/26 Paladin/Cleric.. sure now he's limited to Cleric only weapons because those are the rules... and... a Halfling Fighter... he's lvl 5. See why pnp rules is bad?
  • ErgErg Member Posts: 1,756
    edited March 2013
    @Bhaaldog and likeminded bhaalspawns

    This has nothing to do with freedom of speech, but rather with the freedom of enjoying the game the way you like it without forcing your choices on others. That's why everything that is not hardcoded should be changed only through mods.

    Now that WeiDU has been ported successfully on Mac and procedures have been described to install most mods even on iPad, with and without jailbreaking, there really is no excuse anymore for not using mods, except maybe extreme laziness.

    Edit: look here for an example of how requests should be made (i.e. in the Modding section instead of the Feature Requests section; to express my appreciation to the OP I even made myself a mod for him).
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